ellisno
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| 12/08/2006 8:37 AM |
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I am building a SIPS home in the NYC area - it is hard to get accurate information on my heating & cooling needs since most contractors are not familiar with SIPS & therefore are using stick build methods to do my calculations.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
House specifics .........
basement - 1400 sq ft, 12" thick poured concrete walls, radiant in the slab, small AC unit
1st fl - 1400 sq ft, radiant in gypcrete throughout, 3 ton AC unit
2nd fl - 1400 sq ft, radiant in gypcrete throughout, 3 ton AC unit
People are telling me that with radiant in the basement & on the first floor it would produce enough heat to do radiators or limited radiant on 2nd floor.
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PanelCrafters
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| 12/08/2006 2:59 PM |
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Posted By ellisno on 12/08/2006 8:37 AM
I am building a SIPS home in the NYC area - it is hard to get accurate information on my heating & cooling needs since most contractors are not familiar with SIPS & therefore are using stick build methods to do my calculations.
Any input would be greatly appreciated. You'll need to get an accurate Heat Loss calculation performed. Email me for a pointer.
People are telling me that with radiant in the basement & on the first floor it would produce enough heat to do radiators or limited radiant on 2nd floor. Not True! Please remember that the Radiant Heat temperature is highest at the source(in your case the floor). The amount of heat actually decreases the higher that you go. A floor above a radiant heated floor will derive little if any heat from the floor below.
Radiant is king in my book. If you want to save a few bucks, radiators will work nicely. Take a look at Runtal baseboard radiators. They are sweet. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ellisno
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| 12/08/2006 6:35 PM |
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Thanks for the reply.
What do I need to do Heat Loss Calculation.
I want everything to go right - do not want to give my husband any excuses to complain since building with SIPS was my idea.
Thanks
Noreen |
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PanelCrafters
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| 12/08/2006 11:46 PM |
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Posted By ellisno on 12/08/2006 6:35 PM
What do I need to do Heat Loss Calculation. Plans and/or measurements, materials' R-Values, and either calc manually or use software. Email me for more info. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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absorka
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| 12/14/2006 1:59 PM |
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I was struggling with the same delema. I had HVAC Consulting do complete design and load requirment for our house. I would say it was money well spent.
Their website is www.HVAC-Consult.com
Steve |
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ICF372
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| 12/27/2006 1:47 PM |
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We also used HVAC consult for one of our ICF houses. Never go with out one!!
Heres why.
From there audit we can size a geothermal heat pump kit combined with a radiant floor kit, Intirely plug and play, that you can install yourself. You'll save on installation and 50% on heating and cooling.
The system will be sized to your special SIPS needs and you and your hubbie will both be warm and comfie.
See the attachment. Remember many areas have reduced rates for geothermal.
Eldon Howe |
Attachment: ICF Home with Standard Energy Rates.pdf
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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PanelCrafters
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| 12/27/2006 5:59 PM |
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Posted By ICF372 on 12/27/2006 1:47 PM
We also used HVAC consult for one of our ICF houses. Never go with out one!!
The system will be sized to your special SIPS needs and you and your hubbie will both be warm and comfie.
Nice presentation, but Where's The Beef? As stated it's a Energy Analysis and Cost Comparison. Ok, but what are they using for R-Values? What are they using for Air Infiltration(critical with either ICF's or SIPS)? What is the wall area? What is the window area? And doors? Is there a basement? If so, are they calculating losses for it?
This thing is not a Heat Loss(or gain) but rather, like it says, an Energy Analysis. It does specify a number, but no information on how it's derived.
Do they also send out a document that can be verified? |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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andy351
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| 12/27/2006 9:24 PM |
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| I agree with jc,I would only accept a heat loss calculation where I could see how everything was figured and what was pluged in for all the gains and losses. What I did was get www.hvaccomputer.com and put in all of my own info (took @3 hours) and I did not have to rely on what someone else thought I was using or wanted to do and then I could add or subtract things like windows, ect and see how it changed my calculations, I looked over your info and while it looked nice their is nothing there that I would use or trust with out seeing how they figured everything. Take the sure road and do it yourself for you will learn alot in the proscess. ps everyone that tried to talk me out of building with PU sips is now asking me many questions and some are thinking of doing it themselves. Randy |
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ICF372
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| 12/28/2006 10:11 AM |
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Andy,
Attached are The load calculations you requested.
This house's envolope is completely ICF . All exterior walls and a ICF roof.
HRV losses are accounted for.
However it does'nt take into account the the entire sturcture is monolific concrete with no air infiltration through the walls or thermal mass " moderation affect". Nore does it take into account effeciencys gained in the geothermal coupled to the concrete floors.
All numbers are standard.
Eldon Howe
I've tryed to send this file twice now , But it exceeds the max size (100kb)
If you e-mail me I can send it to you .
Eldon Howe
esh@pathwaynet.com |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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andy351
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| 01/03/2007 11:09 PM |
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| Eldon,I would encourage you to share all the info with your clients and add this info to your report. The more educated they are the more they will see the value in what you are doing for them, I would still spend the 50.00 dollars and run my own report as a second opinion and if they both match great and if they dont then their is sonething to figure out. I did my own and my house worked out great. Thanks for the answer Eldon. Andy |
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ICF372
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| 01/04/2007 10:50 AM |
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| Andy, Second opinions are great. And we did preform our own heat calculations . Witch show a little better performance. But then we know our system very well and used maximum performance numbers and added thermal mass into the mix. Lower performance numbers and no Mass was used to simulate an average use of our system by average builders.
Eldon Howe |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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PanelCrafters
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| 01/04/2007 12:57 PM |
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Posted By ICF372 on 01/04/2007 10:50 AM
But then we know our system very well and used maximum performance numbers and added thermal mass into the mix. Please define 'Maximum Performance Numbers'. And, what calculation did you use for Thermal Mass?
Lower performance numbers and no Mass was used to simulate an average use of our system by average builders. So, you are saying that an 'average' installation of your system will/could lead to lower performance? What would be the differences? |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ICF372
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| 01/05/2007 12:54 PM |
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| Thermal mass calculations are somewhat of a guess.
What we do know is that with our "Total Concrete House System". We have 5 basic thermal envelope materials or parts. That perform at tested R-values of up to R- 40.
1- the 2 unbroken single piece eps foam ,walls, floors, roof.
2- the monolithic concrete walls, floors, roof.
3- doors and window openings
4- ventilation system
5-pluming, electrical
That is it period!
Anyone of these parts that are assembled poorly or detailed poorly will affect calculated performance.
However, because that there is just 5 basic materials rather than the hundreds of parts for Sips or thousands of parts standard stud walls. Thermal losses due to errors or unsealed connections are greatly reduced
Because the concrete that is poured into the icf forms is very aggressivly consolidated, it becomes one single monolithic part.
The icf foam forms interlock and any damage to the foam is repaired before the pour, it to becomes a single unbroken part.
Sips work much the same way. Although top and bottom plates are direct thermal bridges as well is the floor system an roof connection points.
You guys know how to detail this to reduce air infiltration at these points. And all is fine.
With or Total Concrete House System this step permately eliminate. Both during construction and down the road maintenance.
Eldon Howe
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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PanelCrafters
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| 01/05/2007 3:48 PM |
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Posted By ICF372 on 01/05/2007 12:54 PM
Thermal mass calculations are somewhat of a guess....That perform at tested R-values of up to R- 40.
Ok Eldon, let's make this simple: What R-Value do you give to an 8" core ICF wall with 2 2-2.5" EPS walls? Say an 8" core BuildBlock.
What I love about ICF manufacturers, is that they try to combine R-Value, Air Infiltration and Thermal Mass, and try to equate that combination into a single entity they call an 'Effective R-Value'. Apples and Oranges. And, even then, it's not a single value but a wide range. BuildBlock states: R-24 to R-50.
Do you wonder why there's confusion out there concerning ICF's?
....jc |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ICF372
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| 01/06/2007 3:10 PM |
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| I don't profess to know all about R-value.
We did use R-30 for the calculations.
Looking at the foam only it is R-22 @ 70 degrees.
As I understand it foam loses R-value in the South due to higher temps,and gains R-value in the North due to lower temps..
As tested in the real world with a infrared camera, ICF wall sections test between R-30 and R-40. Newer icf's now have additional foam added to the outside for even higher r-values.
Apples to oranges comparisons are the real world comparison and are fair and the only accurate way to measure. All components of the envelope add up to,or detract from the actual R-value of the wall section. No matter what system you use.
Each system is what it is.
I'm not knocking the other system. Just providing the report as requested.
We do choose our parts based on the performance of structural, health, and efficiency over a very long term. We are talking many hundred's of years.
I can e-mail the the load calcs if you like as it is apperantly to large here.
Eldon Howe
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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John in the OC
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| 01/20/2007 4:05 PM |
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Eldon
Thanks for sharing the info about radient heat and HAV consults!
Do you have any info on the geothermal systems and where would one find a HVACconsult re: ?
John
AH wrote"We also used HVAC consult for one of our ICF houses. Never go with out one!!
Heres why.From there audit we can size a geothermal heat pump kit combined with a radiant floor kit, Intirely plug and play, that you can install yourself. You'll save on installation and 50% on heating and cooling.The system will be sized to your special SIPS needs and you and your hubbie will both be warm and comfie.
Eldon Howe" |
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rabadger
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| 01/22/2007 11:00 PM |
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| Manual J HVAC load calculations for SIPS and ICF are performed by using the certified ASTM performance R ratings that the manufacturers have. To be accurate you must contact the factory and have the tested ASTM R rating performance faxed. |
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rabadger
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| 01/22/2007 11:09 PM |
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| Also all the construction items are treated with their own values, windows, doors, fireplaces, etc. They all contribute to uncontrolled infultration. |
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Mark Fleming
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| 01/23/2007 1:50 PM |
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| I think that understanding the calculations is important enough so that every involved owner should download their own HVAC software and run the numbers for themselves. I've had a free program from SlantFin (a hydronic radiator firm) that I've used for a few years. It calculates the heat loss of each room. You can add a window or change the ceiling height by 4 inches and immediately see the results.
The reason that I recommend that the homeowner mess around with this is to get some idea of the inter-relation of R values, infiltration values, ceiling heights, etc. While some of these numbers may be an educated guess, even still it's important to see the effect of using triple pane windows instead of double pane windows. You can quickly see that that's not where the major heat loss issues are.
If you're not certain, first you plug in R30 for walls. Then, you plug in R40 for walls. It could be that the difference in BTU requirements doesn't change your HVAC of choice. But change the air infiltration numbers and you'll have some serious HVAC differences. Quality of construction is much more likely to effect loads that R values, ICF wall mass, etc.
I just did a heat load calc for the 500sf shop above the garage I'm building. It's all 2x6 framed and ready for insulation. Playing with the numbers, I have a choice of standard fiberglass insulation (crap) and a small furnace; or I could spray-foam (top shelf) and get by with a little 1,500 watt floor heater or two. It's actually the air infiltration numbers that have the most effect.
Now I have some numbers to work with. Either a $600 furnace and $250 of fiberglass insulation or $2000 in foam, no furnace, and a smaller heating bill. Of course, I can change types of insulation, amounts of air infiltration, etc. and decide from additional options.
Bottom line, messing with heat load software for a couple hours is a good thing even though you will find out that it won't give you a simple answer.
Since I'm not dealing with residential occupied space, by load calculations can be tailored to my needs. Instead of keeping the area at 68 when it's 28 outside, I can size the heat so that I may need extra clothes. $24 longjohns vs. a bigger furnace. No contest. Too bad common sense isn't allowed under the IRC.
And, I just scored on a 2Kw 120V pressure activated duct heater off of Ebay for $28. There's my "furnace" and I know that it's sized right.
Mark Fleming |
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PanelCrafters
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| 01/23/2007 4:25 PM |
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Posted By Mark Fleming on 01/23/2007 1:50 PM
I think that understanding the calculations is important enough so that every involved owner should download their own HVAC software and run the numbers for themselves....The reason that I recommend that the homeowner mess around with this is to get some idea of the inter-relation of R values, infiltration values, ceiling heights, etc.
Mark is so right. Playing the 'What If' game can tell you what is really going on, and lead you to the proper materials choices.
There is a lot of confusion concerning ICF's. When people start talking about 'Effective R-Value', be very careful. Something like R-50 to R-90 is a great sales gimmick(BS), but doesn't tell you anything!
If a contractor tries to tell you that 'in this area we figure xxx per sqft', show him the door. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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