Hey all, long time reader, first time poster.  I've been researching for a long time now ICF and SIPs systems in preparation for building my own house.  This will be the second house I've worked on, though my first was traditional stick framing. 

Before I go too far let me just let everyone know that I don't have any formal construction training, just a lot of hands on work with my first house (helped frame, ran electrical, installed doors and windows, hung all the drywall, tile, paint, trim, cabinets, countertops, install a sprinkler system, finished out the basement with a poured shower, etc) and hobby woodworking stuff.  I consider myself pretty handy.

I am going to be building on an acre lot in eastern Nebraska (-5 degrees here today!).  The house will have a walkout basement, sits on a little hill, and has a pretty constant wind out of the north.  I will be providing a lot of the labor (along with my father and father-in-law) on this house.

I've been planning on building with an ICF basement, but I've been struggling with the SIPS or ICF for the main floor and second story.  Two of the carpenters that worked with me on my current house have some experience with ICF houses and are willing to work on my new house, but I haven't been able to find any SIPS houses here in Lincoln.

Here is what I'm looking at stricly material wise, not including labor...

If I go the SIP route, I'd have the panels precut to make sure that I have the best chance of an installation with the fewest issues.  From some of the messages that sounds like it's going to be in the $6 - $7 per sq foot of wall, thus if I have a perimeter of say 160 feet with 9 foot walls (hanging floor trusses to get a 8 foot ceiling) thats approx $8,640 @ $6 sq ft per level.

If I go the ICF route and I use say $3 per sq ft for the block, concrete @ $80 a cubic yard, with a 1/2 cubic foot of concrete per square foot of wall ~ $1.48 giving me a total of $4.48 per sq foot of wall totaling $6,452.  Now of course that doesn't include any rebar, wire, spray foam, brace rental, or bucks.  It seems to me (not knowing rebar prices) that the ICF and SIPS wall system for materials come out pretty close.

It seems like my numbers are off somewhere.  I know a lot of the price of the house comes from how complicated it is, and while I'm still working on the plans it is basically a 40 x 40 box with a 20 x 30 garage attached. 

It seems to me that SIPs houses will go up faster, especially with a precut and numbered system and would be easier for amatures.  Even if I have free labor, I have to figure in the interest on the construction loan every day and it seems like the sips ICF house would be slightly more complicated (I'm thinking of the lintels and all that rebar). 

On the other side of that is occasional high speed winds and tornados and quietness of the structure (they are still farming in the fields across the street) to take into account.  I'm guessing that SIPS won't do a whole lot to keep out the sound of combines running.

There are also a number of technologies that I want to take advantage of (geothermal heat pump, radiant floors, possibly SpeedFloor concrete floors) and of course I want to limit thermal bridging as much as possible with the floor system we install. 

Has anyone installed a hanging truss system in a SIPs house to limit the rim /joist exposure?  How about concrete floors? 

I suppose what I really need to do is get the plans finished and then submit to both ICF and SIPS companies for material bids.

This post turned into a book, so thanks for taking the time to read it and I look forward to any thoughts you might have.

John

You will also need a concrete pump and scaffold for the ICF's, there is a learning curve with all new technologies, but I think that you would find the SIPS more user friendly and less labor intensive

Good call... forgot about the additional $1,000 for the pump truck per pour.

John

Know the area well. GBR.

Yes. It's good way to go. It will make for a slightly trickier electrical installation though. You might also think about active solar for part/most of your heating. It works well for radiant, and Eastern Nebraska has a solar isolation of about 3.5.

I'd go with an ICF basement(tornady safe room), and SIP walls for sure. An all ICF house would be more(at least $8 - $10 per sqft wall). And, watch out for the ICF R-Value hype. 8" SIP walls will give you about an R-30(no hype).

Your roof could be SIPS or trusses depending on your plan. Concrete floors will add cost, but it's the best way to use radiant(I'm not a 'staple-up' fan).

Since you'll need cooling, a GSHP might be a good way to go.

Pumper truck is an issue but it will be offset somewhat by equipment to unload and hang your panels. Since you are using 9' walls, you will probably end up with a lot of 8' x9' pieces. They can be unloaded and hung with a crew of at least 4, but you might be wishing for a forklift by the end of a manual project.

You mentioned a hanging truss. I believe you were talking about a floor truss. I believe there is an article by Bill Chaliff on this in the learning section. You could look at hanging up to 24' walls and put the floor in after you have set the perimeter. Or you can hang the walls inside ICFs if you go that route. Either way it is a little bit more expensive, but rim board isn't cheap and you get some savings with shorter trusses. Spacejoists can also work well for mechanicals if they are available from your materials supplier and may save you money over floor trusses.

I hadn't considered that 9' SIPs panels would be in 8 foot increments. I had assumed (bad word) that they would be in the same 4 foot sections as the 8 foot ones I was considering. Obviously I need to do my homework a little better. =-)

In the learning center there is an article titled "A winning rim detail" http://www.sipweb.com/learningcenter/com-rimdetail.asp that talks about using cut down 4 1/2" SIPs as a rim board.

There is also another article titled "Second floor options and sealing rim joists" in which he uses 10 foot walls and then standard top flange joist hangers. I was under the impression that using joist hangers was not good for SIPS... something about it bearing more weight on the inside than outside skin.

The only other thing I could think of was to go ahead and build the floor system like you normally would (ie joists on top of wall with rim board) and then insulate the heck out of the rim with EPS and spray urethane.

John

Not necessarily. The panel width is manufacturer dependent. It's either 4' or 8'. And, of course, an 8' wide panel could be installed on it's side, for a wall up to 24' long. Normally, these are only used at the foundation level. Above the foundation level, if you want to eliminate the rim, you would hang the floor joists from the top of the walls.

OSB and hangers is more of an issue in something like cabinets where the weight has a tendency to pull the fasteners out of the wall. Incidentally I can't remember who suggested using a cleat on the back of the cabinet with a male counterpart anchored to the wall had a great idea. My cabinet guy calls it a French cleat as some Europeans move their cabinets when selling their home.

At any rate, for your first build, best case scenario might be to buy 10' panels for a 9' plate. Hang your floor trusses inside the panel and then run your upper floor deck to the outside edge of the wall. An issue you will have to deal with is drywall height and how tall your trusses are. I wouldn't use a 4" panel as a rim board, because you will double the amount of pieces you will have to install. For the same reason your precuts should come in 8' sections. Question your panel company if they are in 4' pieces as you will have more joints to install. You kind of defeat the process of buying precuts if you end up with wall sections that are less then 8'. Finally in determining your wall heights, don't forget about your interior wall heights. It is not a big deal to set up a chop saw and cut a custom stud length. In fact unless you are truly buying studs, there might be a descrepancy in board lengths and you would want to cut the ends any way. Just remember to cut them before you stick up all your interior walls and then find out that your truss height plus the interior walls is higher then your panels!

Wow, as a member here I have never looked at the sips side if things. I scanned thru all post briefly and see a lot of conflicting info. 1st guy says $1000.00 hr for a ICF pump-more like $135.00 2. says ICF is 6-8.00 more than ICF- here in MIchigan SIPS is 6.00 a sq ft and ICF is 9.00. I've had a few ICF guy's that tried sips and went back to ICF. I've also had a few go ICF on basement with sips up and wished they hadn't, there was a noticeable difference between the comfort level and they still had traditional wood screw pops and shrinkage cracks that are not associated with ICF's. I'm sure all you sips dealers will disagree but that's our experience.

Walltech, That was $1,000.00 per pour and $6-9 per SF for an all ICF house. Be careful.

Welcome To The Party Pal!(Bruce Willis - Die Hard) Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Here's what I said: I can see how that could be misinterpreted. I meant that it would be more than the $6 estimated(SIP), and probably about $8 - $10 per sqft wall(total). But, that's a WAG. Up here in Colorado I've seen prices as high as $15.

If you'll do it for $9 up here, I'll have to have ya up here for a little 'vacation' when I build!

To be honest I don't know what a pour from a pump truck would run. I've seen estimates of $700 - $1,200 depending on the size of house mentioned on the boards here. I figured $1,000 was a nice round number to estimate with, though the $8 - $10 works out better for what I'm trying to figure.

What I'm really looking for is somewhat realistic estimates that I can design a house around and to try to determine how much I can do myself.

It looks like for a house with a 160 ft perimeter that there is a difference of approximately $4,800 in materials per floor (assuming 10 foot walls to allow for a 9 ft ceiling).

John

Estimates don't work well unless you get a real bid for the area. Home owners can get taken advantage of for small or individual jobs. I wouldn't dream of trying to do a concrete job myself around here as a contractor because the mixing plants are a week and a half out and I once waited for a concrete truck for four hours while a crane was holding up the unipole for a billboard. Relying on a pumper truck and concrete to arrive at the same time from two different companies would not be my idea of fun without a prior relationship.

Doing the work yourself is great if you can get people to commit to the work through a bidding and contract for work with penalties for non performance.

Don't let anybody fool you! The average pump cost is $135.00 per hour not a $1000.00. Most pumps have a $600.00 dollar minimum and most jobs fall into the minimum charge. And yes I did misinterpret the way it was written and also meant to say 6.00-8.00 more than SIPS. I'm glad you posted that correctly so we all could understand it better. I can't imagine why anyone would be charging those kinda rates in Colorado for ICF but it would be costly to travel there and work for that kinda money.
Take care.

Our typical design around here for a basement home is ICF below grade and SIP above grade, with SIP roof (75% of the time) or truss roof. We designed and built my home, which is very similar to yours, with a walkout basement and is ICF below grade, SIP above grade, and SIP roof. I do not feel any comfort level difference between the floors and the home is very quiet. We use radiant floor heating and cooling (we are in the southwest, so cooling is the significant issue) as well as high pressure HVAC with chillers and tankless water heaters. I also recommend solar water heating and power.

We bring the ICF walls to the floor level above, plate them with PT 2x plates and hang the floor trusses with top flange hangers. We used TJI’s for the floor system and placed 1-1/2” concrete on the subfloor for the radiant floor heating and cooling tubes. Open web trusses allow for easier utility runs but with only 2” diameter HVAC ducts, it was not an issue on this house. At areas where the lower wall is SIP (walkout side), we also used top flange hangers on the SIP wall to hang the TJI’s. This eliminates the break in the environmental envelope. Extend the subfloor to the outside edge of the wall as mmacgowa recommends. From a structural point of view this helps transfer floor diaphragm forces to the walls.

We use a 2x PT sill plate as the form for the concrete floor and another smaller 2x plate on that for the sill for the walls. In your area with tornadoes I would anchor both plates into the ICF wall with 18” “J” bolts as well as using the hold downs your engineer requires. Whether you use 4’ or 8’ wide panels is a decision you need to make considering the logistics of your project. With a 10’ or 12’ wall, moving an 8’ wide panel by hand gets tiring and placing them on a second story can certainly raise your pulse. If you plan on hand placing all the panels, consider 4’ panels. If you will have a forklift or crane, then larger is the way to go. We have built whole walls on the ground and used a forklift to fly them in.

One issue to think about is the width of the walls. ICF walls are typically about 11” thick and SIP walls are not. This is only a concern at stair wells or open areas where the wall continues from the basement to the upper floor without a floor break. Furring can be used to fill the difference or you can use ICF all the way up at these areas. We also tend to use different SIP wall thicknesses around the house. For instance, we use thicker walls to the west and use 12” SIPs for architectural reasons around doors or window areas.

All that being said, we have had clients who insisted on all ICF, including the floor system (Insul-Deck) because they were building in extremely windy areas. We have also designed and are currently building a 4 story ICF condo complex. There are pros and cons for both systems and the decision is really a function of each project and can not really be answered in this forum. All we can do is give you input and ideas to help you make the decision.

I really appreciate all of the comments in here. This is exactly the kind of information I've been looking for.

As far as the 4' vs 8' sections go, I'm planning on having a Lull on site in any case so 8' panels should be fine. It'd suck trying to move materials to the second floor without one much less window installation!

A few technical questions...

avant - you mentioned using double treated top plates on your ICF walls and hanging your joist hangers on those. If you figure an 8" ICF wall ~ 13" total width what size top plate are you using?

For the concrete floor did you pour on top of standard 3/4" decking then? I'm assuming your PT was all the way out to the edge of the ICF's, then the PT sill on top of that is inset to allow the SIP outer panel to rest on the PT plate below?

Thanks again for all of the info everyone!

John

John,

Our ICF overall width was 11" so we used 2x12 PT plates on top of the ICF wall. We then used PT 3/4 sheathing that extended all the way out to the outside edge of the 2x12 and ICF wall. On top of that we placed a PT 2x that was wider than the walls (i.e. a 2x8 for 6” SIP). It was placed flush with the outside plane of the ICF-2x12-sheathing. We then poured the concrete floor to the top of the 2x8. On top of this we installed a 2x6 7/16” inside the outside plane. The SIP was then placed over this last 2x and nailed from the sides. Of course we used mastic at this joint. We used standard 10” “J” bolts to hold the 2x12 and drilled holes in the sheathing to go around them. Any bolt material that extended above the sheathing was cut off. In your case, where shear will be critical during tornado season, I would add 18” “J” bolts that go through the entire plate (2x12-sheathing-PT 2x-normal 2x) to provide more shear resistance. Also, plan on using 4x’s as wall end bucks to attach the hold downs that will be required.

John,
A couple things about the job site to consider.  If you are using SIPs for the roof, get a crane.  It is much faster and SAFER than a forklift/boom.  Have an idea how to lift 8' foot panels with shorter forks.  We made a pallet with extensions and slid them off by hand on the second floor.  I also used floor trusses and set them on top of the wall and then used 7/16" OSB as the rim board.  Foam the seems and stuff cavaties with pink.

John,
I breezed through all of the above comments and just wanted to let you know that my husband (a master electrician) and I used SIPs for our home in 2005. We built (did not hire out.....) a 2 story, with walk out basement that is 2600 sq. feet. We took less than one week to build the first floor with SIPs and one weekend to build the second floor. If you have specific questions for us, feel free to ask........
PS- we did not use SIPS for the roof. We were concerned about moisture build up- and expense.

Everybody.
I dont come here often becasue I am strictly an ICF builder. The reason I chose ICF can best be explained by looking at a picture that is posted on the second page my web site.
It shows what is left of 2 block houses, 2 block and stick houses, one Sip house and 1 ICF house after a tornado visited them.

Regards
Joe