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I want to build SIPs panels in Alaska!
Last Post 06 Nov 2007 08:07 AM by rdoor1. 19 Replies. |
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 02 Nov 2007 09:00 PM |
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I am getting close to retirement soon and I'm wanting our retirement home to be a SIPs home, unfortunately, getting SIPs panels up here in Alaska is so expensive -- freight can cost up to one third of the expense of the panels!! I looked around for a local SIPs manufacturer but there are none. There is a local manufacturer of EPS in Anchorage who make foam blocks for less than we pay for the ones from the Lower 48, however.
In addition to wanting to save money on my own panels, I want to be able to help other families up here lower their heating expenses by manufacturing panels that they can use. Also, in my spare time when I am not working on the North Slope, I am involved in a prison ministry and I am wanting to try to create a few employment opportunities for some people who've made some mistakes but who seek a fresh start in life -- it seems like this would be a good type of work for a hard-working person who may not have a lot of marketable skills but who might be good at manual labor and who might be able to follow procedures...
So, I've got some questions: I was reviewing a thread that some folks started about two years ago and I learned that Rohm and Haas makes an adhesive called Mor-Ad 646. Is this the best adhesive for bonding OSB to EPS?
I have seen Continental Industries' 4 X 24 press. It's going for $29K now... Are there better ways to apply the pressure to the panels? Some people have been talking about air jacks and vacuum bags. Which is the most fool-proof way for someone who is able to spend a little money? Does anyone have any plans for a press?
How long must the adhesive set before the pressure can be released from the panel?
How are the OSB boards and EPS block aligned so that when pressure is applied, everything doesn't shift around?
What grade of OSB must be used for a certifiable panel? (I won't even delve into the issue of certification in this posting -- it probably deserves it's own thread)
Must the OSB surface or the EPS surface be treated in some special way before the adhesive is applied?
What's the best way of forming the electrical chases?
I am very excited about starting into this business and I bet that I can get some economic development grants from the State of Alaska to get this thing kicked off. I would really appreciate any input anyone could offer. If you'd like to call or you want me to call you, please reply to me with a number or I can email you mine.
Very best wishes,
Eric T.
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 03 Nov 2007 10:50 AM |
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Eric T.;
You can make a simple assembly facility with:
a flat surface
a roll coater
and weights (concrete block will work)
I know a fellow who made his own panels in his garage this way.
chases are made with a hot wire ( piano wire/electric welder)
If you wnt to discuss further "off the forum" please email me at; [email protected]
Good luck with your ministry |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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NWP
New Member
Posts:44
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| 03 Nov 2007 10:56 AM |
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Hello Eric T. there are several methods of manufacturing panels. you really have to do your homework to determine your cost. also if you are makiing panels for consumer use I would check the laws because there are certian critieras that they must meet and you may have to have engineering. I guess the point is do your homework and be sure it is something that you can manage as it grows. are you the person who sent me the email from alaska? I can be reached at [email protected]603-209-4857 |
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timpatco
New Member
Posts:1
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| 03 Nov 2007 03:43 PM |
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Hi Eric, For your enquiry regarding SIP manufacturing, you can contact me by email [email protected] |
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 04 Nov 2007 08:00 AM |
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First I would like to make some general comments. As the costs of
energy continues to rise, the qualities inherent in SIP panels
construction will become more attractive as does the costs of
transportation. Living in Alaska triples those values, positive and
negative. There are many ares in the world that could benefit from a
simple economical means of producing SIP panels. It's not rocket
science. A few fundamentals need to be understood. They are
availability of acceptable material and a process that meets the
requirements of strength and durability. In dealing with SIPs, we are
talking about substrates of OSB (Exterior 1 preferred), plywood, FRP,
Aluminum, steel, hardboard, cement board and gypsum. Cores consist of
EPS, extruded polystyrene, polyisocyanates and, if you wish, paper
honeycomb. The adhesives are limited to very few options. The Rohm
and Haas Mor Ad M640 series and Morton IsoGrip. There may be others
I'm not aware of. I'm most familiar with the Mor-Ad M640 series
products. http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICC-ES/ESR-1023.pdf
They are tested for strength and durability and compatible with the
IRC, UBC and IBC. The process depends on the substrate, core and
adhesive used. They all require a given amount of pressure over a
given amount of time depending on which formulation that is used. In
my case, I chose OSB, EPS and Mor-Ad M646 with an open time of 10
minutes and pressure time of 30. Given the process used, I am
confidant I have a certifiable SIP. I lack the second opinion that the
products used and process in fact meet those standards. A certifiable
or certified SIP does not suggest that it is acceptable for a given
use. It's use is subject to the approval of an approving authority.
That approving authority may be an individual, code inspector or design
engineer. In my case, it is me. It's use is a whole different ball
game.
The process requires a give amount of pressure over a given amount of
time. In my case I chose a vacuum system. It is simple and cheap. If
you figure 5 PSI over a 4x8 panel, we're dealing with nearly 24 tons of
pressure. Considering the fabrication of such a mechanical apparatus
and cost, it was a non option. First what I did and it's
shortcomings. I used a box with 2x8 sides and a vinyl cover. The
cover pressed down on the panels with an even pressure between 3 and 5
psi. The bottom is under no stress as the pressure is equal on both
sides. The sides are a different story, however. Considering 5 psi is
720 lbs /sq ft, they move which made chasing leaks more challenging.
If I were to do it again, start with a platform with a Formica top with
two solid sides the height of the panel (s). A vinyl bag (tent) in the
shape of an open bottom box that will seal against the Formica with
high volume low pressure suction (shop vac) then switching over to the
vacuum pump. Another advantage with this setup is you can make the
platform and bag any size you wish. In addition multiple bags will
allow continuous production with one pump. The straight, solid sides
automatically align the load.
The OBS and EPS require no special treatment. A friend of mine used a
rod heated with a torch and shoved it through the EPS to make a chase.
Sounded like a good idea and it worked for him.
Eric, if you are in a no code area, you set the standards you are
willing to accept. I see little difference between doing it right and
doing it wrong. If you are in a code area and building a certifiable
SIP, it's a matter of convincing the approving authority that the
material and process meets acceptable standards.
I hope this gives you some ideas about where you want to go and how to get there.
Rod
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 04 Nov 2007 10:51 AM |
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I'd like to thank all of you who have responded so far! Thank you for taking time to help me out and for your well-thought-out replies. This is a great forum -- little or no flaming -- everyone seems interested in contributing their part, and when it all comes together like this, it makes it whole.
For those who would like to add their two cents, please keep the information coming. When this type of thread was started a couple of years ago, it was one of the most widely read ones...
Thanks so much!
Eric
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 05 Nov 2007 11:36 AM |
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Rod,
There is another advantage to the vacuum approach; When you
are pulling a vacuum on the interface between the OSB, the adhesive
and the foam, you are pulling all of the air out of the pores of the
wood and the foam. If you returned the panel to atmosphere quickly,
all of those pores would back-fill with adhesive. Did you ever
experiment with quickly pulling a vacuum, returning back to atmosphere
and then a final vacuum? That would would give you an incredible bond
if it wouldn't waste too much time...
What do you think?
Eric |
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 05 Nov 2007 11:37 AM |
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Rod,
If I went with the open bottom box design you propose
(which makes a lot of sense) what would be the best way to bond the
awning material to the top of the box? And what would you recommend as
a seal at the bottom of the box where it sits on the formica? A thin
layer of silicon grease on that gasket would really promote an
air-tight seal.
This has been a lot of fun talking about this!
Eric |
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 05 Nov 2007 11:38 AM |
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Rod,
I don't want to wear you out so if you could answer these
questions when you get the opportunity, that would be great -- no
hurry. I'm stuck on the North Slope for another 10 days so I can't put
any of these ideas to use yet anyway.
Was the 10 CFM vacuum pump big enough? Would bigger be better or was it ample?
The
way I'm reading this, within three minutes of activating the adhesive
with the water mist, you need to have your pressure applied. After
thirty minutes, the vacuum pressure can be released. Is that correct?
When can the panels be used?
Are there different grades of EPS? What kind is okay? What kind is even better?
You
mentioned how your friend formed electrical chases with a red-hot rod.
How do the big boys do it? I'm not against getting a resistance-type
piano wire electrical cutter if that's what they use but how do they
get the wire through it to begin with?
What type of spline design do you favor? I kind of like
having the foam extend to the edges of the panel and then routing(?) 1
1/2" channels for 2 X 4 splines because there is no thermal bridging
with that scheme. What do you think about that?
If stronger, consistent vacuum pressures could be achieved, would there be any advantages to the Isogrip line of adhesives?
I think I'm nearly done asking questions. I just got beat out on a vacuum pump that I bid on in Ebay... Well, there will be others...
Thanks for your help, Rod!
Eric |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 05 Nov 2007 03:22 PM |
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Posted By The Postman on 11/05/2007 11:38 AMYou mentioned how your friend formed electrical chases with a red-hot rod. How do the big boys do it? I'm not against getting a resistance-type piano wire electrical cutter if that's what they use but how do they get the wire through it to begin with? I've seen 2 different methods used: A Hot Metal Rod and a Hot Wire. A Hot Rod can be used prior to or after lamination, however a Hot Wire must be used prior to lamination(Does that answer that question?)
What type of spline design do you favor? I kind of like having the foam extend to the edges of the panel and then routing(?) 1 1/2" channels for 2 X 4 splines because there is no thermal bridging with that scheme. What do you think about that? That would certainly work. Many companies also use 7/16" OSB splines instead of the 2x material. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 05 Nov 2007 03:56 PM |
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Good points about the OSB spines and how to form the electrical chase. I'm assuming that if you are using the hot-wire method, you go in through the side of the panel and hollow out your hole (one person on either end of the hot wire)? Does this cause any degradation to the strength of the panel?
Thanks for your contribution!!
Eric
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 05 Nov 2007 07:07 PM |
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The urethane adhesives foam during cure.
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 05 Nov 2007 07:07 PM |
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The urethane
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 05 Nov 2007 07:07 PM |
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The urethane adhesives foam during cure. The reason for pressure is to
force the glue to foam into the OSB and EPS. Believe me, when the
glue line sets, it doesn't come apart. The EPS will fail first. If you
want to see how it works, find some Gorilla Glue. Same type of stuff.
When you get it on your hands, it will come off when it wears off.
Tough stuff.
What I envision is a platform covered with Formica. In the case of
let's say a 4x8 Sip the platform would be 5 ft wide and 9 or 10 ft
long. There would be a wall mounted on the platform the height of the
load on two sides attached to the formica. This would be where the load
would rest against to keep the sides straight. The bag would be an open
bottom box shape hung by four cables to keep the top square and probably
a frame on the bottom to hold it open as it slips over the load and
walls. The bag would drape over the load with the bottom frame resting
on the seal. High volume air would pull the bag tight against the load
when the bag seals on the platform pulling the load against the walls.
I tried using a number of different ways to seal the bag. What seemed
to work fairly well was a "P" shaped weather seal made out of vinyl and
hollow on the inside. What's important is no holes in the Formica.
everything should be glued. The walls should be self supporting at the
corner and the only source of leakage being where the seal attaches and
seams of the bag. Vinyl glue works well on the seams and any leaks can
be sealed by flowing more glue while under vacuum.
Don't know if you can figure all this out. A picture would be easier.
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 05 Nov 2007 07:16 PM |
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I expect 10 days on the North Slope gives you plenty of time to think.
You seem to be making good use of it. The 10 CFM pump was adequate.
Had it been a 20 CFM, it would have over powered some of the leaks and I
could have started building panels sooner. I set a goal of the pump
running no more than one third of the time. That may have been over
kill but I wanted some margin to ensure adequate pressure. It's kinda
like asking how much money is enough. An incredibly small leak will
bleed the bag down rather quickly. What I used is rather crude. With
so much pressure on the sides, it was difficult keeping the seal at the
joints. The design I proposed is to reduce the source of leaks. For a
prototype, I would say 10 CFM is a good place to start. If you decided
to go production or market the system you can size it to whatever you need.
The time frames you stated is basically correct for the M646. Other
formulas have different time frames. That will be a consideration down
the road when you order the adhesive.
If the panels sit overnight, they can be used the following day if
necessary.
Different grades of EPS needs to be discussed with the supplier. I used
1lb (cu ft). I also ordered fireproofing in mine. I don't know if they
can protect for insects or not. That would be a consideration in some
parts of the world.
The rod to melt a chase doesn't need to be re hot, just hot. EPS melts
at 180 to 240 degrees. Another option would be to plow chases in the
foam before gluing.
For the splines you have the right idea. I used 1/2" OSG 3" wide. 1
1/2" into each panel. That more than adequate for wall panels. For the
roof they generally use hardwood for additional strength. These are all
design issues that need to be defined by the approving authority, which
may be a code inspector, design engineer or you. I simply produced
blank panels and fabricated them as they went up.
I used the Mor-Ad adhesive due to it's pressure and open as well as
pressure times. Either product will produce a strong, durable glue
line. If there is a failure, it will be the core or the substrate in
either case. There's a lot of discussions about how long will a SIP
panel last. About all I can say is the glue line will outlast both the
core and substrate. The reason these adhesives are used for SIPs is
they are the only ones to date that have been tested for strength and
durability. There may be others that perform as well, but not tested.
Any other adhesive can not be considered certifiable. Under conditions
of accelerated deterioration, no point of failure could be determined,
so the point of failure is unknown, which scares the hebe jeebies out of
some people. Then they hire a contractor that doesn't have a clue what
he doing.
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Dick Mills
Basic Member
Posts:217
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| 05 Nov 2007 07:22 PM |
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Rdoor1,
How well do foaming adhesives work under a vacuum? I would be worried that the blowing effect of the foaming under a vacuum would force too much adhesive out to the edges. One of the great advantages to vacuum bagging for epoxies and polyesters is that trapped gases are pulled out and at the same time atmospheric pressure evenly presses over the surface to provide a nice smooth surface.
But, on the other hand, typical vacuum bagging techniques utilize large gas permiable membranes over the entire surface, which makes it much easier for the entrained gases to escape.
Dick Mills |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 05 Nov 2007 08:05 PM |
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Posted By The Postman on 11/05/2007 3:56 PM
I'm assuming that if you are using the hot-wire method, you go in through the side of the panel and hollow out your hole (one person on either end of the hot wire)? Does this cause any degradation to the strength of the panel? The 'Hot Wire' method is used prior to the lamination process(raw foam block). And, yes, 2 people and a template are used. The template has a vertical slot and a circle at the bottom. Wire goes down through the slot, around the circle, and back up throught the slot, and the core is removed. Strength degradation? Not much if any. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Dick Mills
Basic Member
Posts:217
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| 05 Nov 2007 08:19 PM |
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Someone a while back mentioned a "hot-balling" technique, but didn't provide any specifics. I am only guessing, but I assume it involves heating up a steel ball, and dropping it from the top of the panel where gravity would cause it to fall through the polystyrene and vaporize it as it goes. Then you just have to "catch" the hot-ball at the bottom edge.
They also said that it can be done after the panel is installed, but I guess you would have to cut the hole for the electrical box and remove some of the foam so that you have an openning to make catching the ball more convenient.
If that is truly the way that it works, then a butane torch, a steel ball, some tongs and a sturdy wire basket (and some good heat resistant gloves) might be all the equipment necessary to form chases - but it might still take two people one pitcher, and one catcher. Maybe others here have actually experimented with the technique.
Dick Mills |
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The Postman
New Member
Posts:16
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| 06 Nov 2007 12:35 AM |
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Rod,
A couple more questions for you: what would the process be to become a
certified panel producer? How much expense would be involved? How
much would I be able to change my process without endangering my
certification?
You mentioned that the glue makes a big mess
inside the bag. How do you prevent it from seeping out and gluing the
OSB to the inside of the box? How do you deal with the mess?
How did you cut your foam out for the splines? Did you do it before or after you laminated your panels?
What would you think about using 1/2" OSB paneling that is grooved, textured and primed
(like T111) for one side of the sheets so that people could save time and money on finishing the exterior surface?
Thanks,
Eric
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rdoor1
New Member
Posts:6
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| 06 Nov 2007 08:07 AM |
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Dick and Eric
The adhesives are low foaming, similar to Gorilla Glue. The force
created by the foaming is resisted by atmospheric or mechanical
pressure. The core material is porous so most of the adhesive is
forced into the core. Plywood and OSB are somewhat porous so the
adhesive penetrates the wood fibers as well. In the case of nonporous
substrates the adhesives attach to the surface but require a different
formulation of adhesive. The first few panels I built I glued to the
edge and did notice a small amount of leakage but not problematic. A
bag would be a different story however. After thinking about it, the
perimeter of every panel will have either a spline or 2x inserted. I simply
kept the glue line up to 1 1/2" away from the edge. The bigest problem
is getting it on your hands handling the panels. It turns them black.
Having a dry edge helps but not totally unavoidable. One could use
gloves or creams. If anyone asked why my hands were black, I would
just tell them I just finished overhauling a diesel engine and did not have
time to clean up. No one asked.
Dick, considering the incredibly small hole that would defeat the
vacuum system, I didn't consider trapping pressurized air inside to be a
problem. It wasn't.
Cutting the splines can be done either with a hot iron with blades that
can be shaped to any form or a mechanical plow. I chose mechanical
because there's no smoke and it's faster. The downside is two years
later I still have those tiny beads showing up. They get in
everywhere. If anyone is interested, I can explain how I built it, but
I would recommend the hot iron route. I did use the hot iron for cut
outs for the 2xs (branding Iron modified). I also considered
precutting the foam before assembly, but where there's a 2x on the top
and/or bottom the core comes up short and keeping it properly in place
is problematic.
The T111 would qualify as a certifiable substrate being plywood. Any
issue would be on assembly. The issues would be joints, flashing etc.
There are others that would be more qualified than me to address
those. One observation I can make is sheets are rarely perfectly
square. If I picked up a sheet that was oil canning (warped), I knew I
was going to have a problem getting it out of the box with the hard
sides, even being square and slightly oversized. Up to 1/4". Those
issues are dealt with either on the factory floor and an experienced
installer. Rather than dealing with the people at the big box store
complaining that their panel was 1/8" out of square, I fabricated each
panel as it went up and about 80 cans of expanding foam sealer
adhesive. Having the need to cut into one of these joints, was a real
pain, but all were sealed and tight.
A certified panel is the most universally accepted authority for
engineers, contractors, banks and homeowners. The problem with being in
Alaska with no manufacturers in the state, it's unlikely that there
would be a person currently qualified to stamp your panels. I can't
answer the question as to what does it take but the principles would be
the same for any approving authority. Go to the bank and ask for
financing, the banker is going to make sure their investment is
secure. The same is true of a certifying engineer. The jurisdiction of approving authorities other than a
certifying stamp would have a more limited jurisdiction, down to an
individual using certifiable panels and properly assembling them for
the primary reason of safety, security and durability. I would start
by completely understanding what it takes in terms of materials and
process to make a certifiable panel by designing and building a
prototype, communicating with adhesive suppliers and produce samples.
Let's face it, Eric, you're nearing retirement with one mission. Just
another mission that's compatible with the first.
Rod
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