lisa6801
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:54
 |
| 03/28/2009 8:37 PM |
|
Since there are so many companies that offer so much what are the basic questions or comments that one needs to ask to be included in a bid? For example if I want to have the window and door openings ready to receive a window once the Sips/ICF is put up, that to me is very clear but I still get bids that do not necessary include a "finished open area for a window". Is there a magic term to use?
Also I am amaze if I ask that I want to have a compete shell (exterior) done from basement walls ICF or superior walls then Sips walls on main level, with timber frame and trusses for roof and I-joists for flooring along with timber frame for interior walls and garage area--am I missing something that needs to be made more clear to a bidder for a package?
I will do the excurvation, concrete pour and hire plumbers, electricians finishers etc.. HVAC. But I get bids with nothing for the crane, or trusses or forklift costs OR it does not include shippping, OR I find out that window openingS really need to have more done to them.. I don't understand? I think i make myself clear but maybe I am not communicating with the right construction words.
This is more blowing off than anything I guess. Any comments to help me as I review what I have?
Lisa |
|
|
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 03/29/2009 7:33 AM |
|
Lisa;
you will need to provide your SIP supplier the "RO" rough opening size for you windows and exterior doors.
As an owner -builder be prepared to make mistakes, it is the cost that owners pay for the learning curve while building a house. Even seasoned builders make mistakes, the difference is, they eat the cost of their mistakes when it happens and reduces their profit margin.
If you are doing the carpentry yourself, you will need to coordinate the forklifts, crane, etc. It is a daunting task if you are doing it for the first time. Shipping may or may not be included in your bids, it is for you to verify the final bids for comprehesiveness.
|
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:662
|
| 03/29/2009 9:42 AM |
|
Lisa, If you could find a local retired builder, building superintendent or building consultant, it would be very benefical in avoiding mistakes and stress, etc. Retired people oftentimes will donate their time. I know I do every day. For interesting residential projects close by I donate time to planning and the job site. By asking around, maybe you can find an experienced person that will assist. |
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
|
|
tmsu
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:65
|
| 03/30/2009 6:10 PM |
|
Lisa,
A "complete" package is a relative term. The SIP company is not going to do your homework for you. Not trying to be insulting but some SIP companies offer varying "packages". What you should do is list what you want quoted, by line item. This will give you an idea of what is NOT included. For various reasons (most very good ones), SIP companies do not include certain items. For the SIP company I used, they did not include dimensional lumber for the window opening buckings. They did not include trusses either. I simply got quotes from area truss manufacturers. I will tell you, as it turned out, using a local company for the trusses and the dimensional lumber was helpful. My SIP company wasn't far (about 90 miles) but my truss company was only 10 miles away. It made it easy to have them get the measurements right and delivered on time.
This is huge undertaking and the SIP company cannot manage the project for you (making sure you have everything you need) unless of course that is a service they offer and you pay for.
Do the companies you are looking at have an engineering department? Mine did and I had many conversations with the engineer (versus sales guy) to get my plans correct. With each change, I was sent an updated copy of the plans. Once I was satisfied, I had to sign off on the plans we were to use. Smart by them and made me feel good I knew what I was going to get. This was built into the price of my quote. Can you visit the manufacturers you are looking at? This might give you a better comfort level with who you choose. Again, the company I went with was nothing like some of the nightmares I have read about. They were professional, patient and thorough. They even spent time on the phone with my building inspector.
|
|
|
|
|
lisa6801
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:54
|
| 04/01/2009 7:37 PM |
|
tmsu,
First thank-you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. My frustration is really that it seems that there is always something I have not thought of to ask the companies on their bids. I am very comfortable with whom I am working with-they are all good. And I have been doing alot on my own as I am not to the point of putting down money for engineering drawings yet but only weeks away. The bids I am getting are as far as they can go without me putting any $$ into it and I understand thatI will not have the exact costs but a fairly go one.Like I have to get the truss cost.
I am going up to an enclosed shell then taking over as the GC. What you have writtten is basically what I am doing and maybe that is what I needed was someone to reconfirm that I am going down the right path.
I'm in fact looking for some truss companies tomorrow, the one I would have used 12 miles away closed down. But what I don't get with my bidders is what you wrote about for example: "For the SIP company I used, they did not include dimensional lumber for the window opening buckings"
That is where I get frustrated because I stated to all that I want to be able to put a window in anopening that is ready to receive the window that all the "framing" whatever is needed for the window is already put in and then I get a bid and if it were not for some smart guy like you giving me info like that I may stumble on it before I make a final selection or not and get caught with my pants down even thought I wrote my requirements pretty specific. I just wish there was a cheat sheet list for what is needed for like a window or door opening and other ntricks of the trade to make sure you know the questions to ask. THX again I am also having shell shock on the cost of windows now.....
Lisa |
|
|
|
|
Jelly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:496
|
| 04/01/2009 9:11 PM |
|
Posted By lisa6801 on 04/01/2009 7:37 PM... I am also having shell shock on the cost of windows now.....
Lisa Yes, I hear you on that one Lisa! Going through it myself, too. What type of windows are you looking for (vinyl, fiberglass, or wood-clad, casement or double-hung, et cetera)?
|
|
|
|
|
tmsu
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:65
|
| 04/02/2009 5:37 PM |
|
Posted By lisa6801 on 04/01/2009 7:37 PM
tmsu,
First thank-you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. My frustration is really that it seems that there is always something I have not thought of to ask the companies on their bids. I am very comfortable with whom I am working with-they are all good. And I have been doing alot on my own as I am not to the point of putting down money for engineering drawings yet but only weeks away. The bids I am getting are as far as they can go without me putting any $$ into it and I understand thatI will not have the exact costs but a fairly go one.Like I have to get the truss cost.
I am going up to an enclosed shell then taking over as the GC. What you have writtten is basically what I am doing and maybe that is what I needed was someone to reconfirm that I am going down the right path.
I'm in fact looking for some truss companies tomorrow, the one I would have used 12 miles away closed down. But what I don't get with my bidders is what you wrote about for example: "For the SIP company I used, they did not include dimensional lumber for the window opening buckings"
That is where I get frustrated because I stated to all that I want to be able to put a window in anopening that is ready to receive the window that all the "framing" whatever is needed for the window is already put in and then I get a bid and if it were not for some smart guy like you giving me info like that I may stumble on it before I make a final selection or not and get caught with my pants down even thought I wrote my requirements pretty specific. I just wish there was a cheat sheet list for what is needed for like a window or door opening and other ntricks of the trade to make sure you know the questions to ask. THX again I am also having shell shock on the cost of windows now.....
Lisa Lisa,
Trust me when I tell you I'm not that smart. The reason my SIP company gave me regarding the dimensional lumber was that there just wasn't much profit in it for them. I appreciated their honesty and it makes sense if you think about it. They cannot mark it up high enough to cover their cost of getting it to the customer without them being accused of "hosing" the customer. It really wasn't that much effort to get the lumber ordered, delivered, cut and put in place. A bit of time but no biggy.
IF YOU INSTALL THE WINDOWS YOURSELF, REMEMBER TO 'DRY' FIT THE WINDOW BEFORE PUTTING THE LUMBER IN. Sorry I went CAPS on ya, but idiotic me (see my first sentence), I put the bucking in first for about (8) openings, only to find that (2) of them were about 1/16" too narrow. It was a PAIN retroing those. A simple "shaving" of the opening first would have avoided this.
I am a bit surprised by some of the window estimates I have seen. I put in Anderson 200 series windows (various sizes mostly casement). Around 20. I paid about $15k. I had several builders tell me the 400 series up charge was not worth the investment (energy savings wasn't enough to pay the upcharge).
Anyway, make sure you "sound proof" your SIPs in some way.
|
|
|
|
|
lisa6801
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:54
|
| 04/02/2009 7:05 PM |
|
Jelly
I am using casement for kitchen DH for others except for a fancy one in the bathroom.
By talking and research Anderson 200 series is a good window and cheaper than the 400 series offering the same thing but with less sizes to chose from. A lot of contractors use these in custom homes believe it or not. This has been confirmed by several people in this forum. draw back is the sills on the 200 is wood (can rot) the 400 has a fibrex composite sill. Also color limitation on the 200. Screens still could be improved on too-the way they attach.
Pella PROline for PELLA distributors also known as the 850 series at Lowes (same thing) is also used by builders and is a good window. Not the contractor grade junk for low middle end track homes but just a good solid window that is used in some custom homes. I don't like how you open it for cleaning though. I had a hard time so it is off my list. The next series up, is a nice one but tooo$$$$ for me.
M&W windows 800 series pretty good I put them in where I am now. vinyl clad outside wood inside for all. Their draw back is the way the screens attach outide. With little press spring attachments (like pins) in 6 places-- you have to pull out each one and align to fit inside the window frame then release and the pressure holds it in place. I have had several fall out and have to retreive and put back in.
I think the PELLA screen was more secure.
Lowes has a sale thru Apr 11 on some windows offering free screens.
To tired to write up my pricing tonight but will post soon.
Lisa
|
|
|
|
|
lisa6801
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:54
|
| 04/02/2009 7:50 PM |
|
TMSU
Anyway, make sure you "sound proof" your SIPs in some way.
This is a quote you gave me last night--Give me a 101 in sound proofing. Noise is a pet-peeve of mine and my husband. We are not near a highway or anything but don't want to hear the TV or noise in the other room when one goes to bed or hear the foot steps on the wood floor if we are below.
THX ahead
Lisa |
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 04/02/2009 8:00 PM |
|
lisa;
you won't soundproof, but RC-1 channel will go a long way to reduce sound transmission 24" oc is better than 16" |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
tmsu
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:65
|
| 04/02/2009 8:49 PM |
|
Posted By lisa6801 on 04/02/2009 7:50 PM
TMSU
Anyway, make sure you "sound proof" your SIPs in some way.
This is a quote you gave me last night--Give me a 101 in sound proofing. Noise is a pet-peeve of mine and my husband. We are not near a highway or anything but don't want to hear the TV or noise in the other room when one goes to bed or hear the foot steps on the wood floor if we are below.
THX ahead
Lisa
I have mentioned before to others on this forum that I really like the SIP but one thing I would have done differently is account for the "hollow" sound or sound waves that travel easily through the SIP. For instance, I can easily hear people talking outside or cars driving, etc. I did not see this issue when I was researching SIPs. Fortunately, I do not live in a high traffic area but still....
In any event, as Chris posted, he suggests a channel on the inside of the SIP to create a "dead" space that reduces the sound. Sound proofing was a bit of an exaggeration on my part. There is a product called acoustiblok (go to acoustiblok.com) that, I think, is a better solution. Assuming it works. I reeeeallly wish I would have done something. In any event, does anyone (Chris?) know if this acoustiblok works?
|
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 04/03/2009 4:28 AM |
|
tmsu;
having built over 90 OSB, steel and fiber cement SIP buildings over the last 15 years........air separation is the most economical solution. Not more attachment |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Jelly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:496
|
| 04/03/2009 9:05 AM |
|
Chris, I have read that it's best to install RC-1 channel perpendicular to the framing (or panels) and to place the screws through the gypsum into the channel between the framing members, being careful not to put the screw into the framing member itself (in the case of SIPS, I guess making sure not to screw all the way into the panel would be the same).
Is this your experience with RC channel? I know you normally place hat channel vertically. Would placing RC channel horizontally cause h*ll for the drywallers? I'd think horizontally it would make running electrical easier. But would orientation really make a difference in noise reduction? |
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 04/03/2009 11:31 AM |
|
Jelly;
since skins run all directions, it does not matter which way the channels run. We run them the best way for the drywaller.
We also like top use 1-1/2" hi-hat to create a deeper dead air space and bigger wire chase, keep attachment screws to a minimum, the hi-hat is not structural for the panel.
|
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Green1
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:21
|
| 04/03/2009 4:15 PM |
|
Having built many SIP structures here in florida,Using 1-1/2" hat rails .I never had a complaint other than it was too quiet,Inside the house. Using the hat rails added dead space for insulation value, and space for running plumbing and eletric.We had one job the owners wanted the TV room sound proofed,And we used DB-3 by United Plastics installed behind the drywall and insulated doors which worked took care of the sound problem.
Think Green-Save Green
Ralph Locke,Deland,Fl
Lockeconst@aol.com |
|
|
|
|
Jelly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:496
|
| 04/03/2009 8:17 PM |
|
| Chris, Ralph, is there a reason you guys prefer hat channel for furring instead of steel framing? |
|
|
|
|
Green1
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:21
|
| 04/03/2009 9:08 PM |
|
Jelly,Hat rails are steel.And reasons are price and easier to notch for water and eletric service. when I need more space for shower valves or load boxes,etc,I use standard steel framing.Also there was a couple historic 100 year old houses we put steel SIP additions on, were we used wood framing that was salvaged and reused for our offsets for the drywall inside and To offset outside for the wood shakes( The stuff was so hard we had to predrill
the holes).You can really use what you feel safe with.
Think Green-Save Green
Ralph Locke, Deland,Fl
Lockeconst@aol.com |
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 04/03/2009 9:10 PM |
|
Posted By Jelly on 04/03/2009 8:17 PM
Chris, Ralph, is there a reason you guys prefer hat channel for furring instead of steel framing? hi-hat is less and easier than framing, Z - furring is also effective
|
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Jelly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:496
|
| 04/03/2009 9:31 PM |
|
I can see how fastening the hat channel to the panels would be easier than steel framing because of the flanges on the hat channel. On the other hand aren't steel framing members pre-punched for electrical and water?
I would have thought steel framing was cheaper because it is more ubiquitous than hat channel. Guess I was wrong - wouldn't be the first time! I suppose the price may also depend on what I can get locally. How does Z-furring compare in price to the other two?
I have to admit with the low price of wood these days, it's looking a little bit tempting to fur out with dimensional lumber... help.... pull me back from the dark side! :) But hey, it would be inside of the steel envelope, and if not structural then it shouldn't increase my insurance rates... |
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
|
| 04/04/2009 6:47 AM |
|
Posted By Jelly on 04/03/2009 9:31 PM
I can see how fastening the hat channel to the panels would be easier than steel framing because of the flanges on the hat channel. On the other hand aren't steel framing members pre-punched for electrical and water?
I would have thought steel framing was cheaper because it is more ubiquitous than hat channel. Guess I was wrong - wouldn't be the first time! I suppose the price may also depend on what I can get locally. How does Z-furring compare in price to the other two?
I have to admit with the low price of wood these days, it's looking a little bit tempting to fur out with dimensional lumber... help.... pull me back from the dark side! :) But hey, it would be inside of the steel envelope, and if not structural then it shouldn't increase my insurance rates... Termites won't care about your insurance
Z furring is a little less than hat, if you use wood you will sacrafice the noise control
Don't reinvent the wheel, price of steel has also come down about 30%
|
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|