Lentz
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 03/13/2007 10:11 AM |
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I just received a price on the Nova-mesh 700 product by Propex (20 lb bag) by a local supplier. The price quoted was $20.45 per bag plus tax. I can not locate another supplier in my area to see if I am getting a fair price. Can anyone advise if this is the going rate on this product.
Thanks,
Lentz |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
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| 03/13/2007 8:07 PM |
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A fair price is what you are willing to pay for it. If another redi-mix firm sold it for less, but had questionable concrete mixes, would you change? Considering its a $20 item, how much could they gouge you?
Anyway, where will you be using this fiber mix? |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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Lentz
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 03/14/2007 6:58 AM |
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Thanks for your comments Jim. The supplier of the Nova-mesh and my concrete supplier are two different entities, but your point is well taken. It is my intention to substitute the Nova-mesh 700 product in place of rebar within the ICF wall. Rebar/Lintels will still be used around all windows, doors and other openings. Rebar will also be used from the footer into the first two ICF basement courses and from the top of the basement wall into the first courses of the ICF first floor walls. I am building a one story home with a full basement (80X44). Basement level, first floor and two car garage walls will be ICF. I will be using Build Block 11 inch form for my project.
Any comments are welcome,
Kelly Lentz
Central Pennsylvania |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
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| 03/14/2007 8:24 AM |
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| I'm ion a hurry right now, but remember fibers do not replace rebar below grade. It does seem like you are using it correctly above grade! |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 03/15/2007 9:14 AM |
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I wouldn't recommend this procedure on a basement either! I believe they say it can replace the horizontals but not the verticals? (maybe I'm wrong) The cost of the fiber is equivalent to the cost of the re-bar and with a good block like BB your time to install the re-bar is negligible, no tying necessary.
Dave |
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yogia
Registered Users
Posts:78
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| 03/16/2007 11:13 PM |
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Posted By Lentz on 03/13/2007 10:11 AM
I just received a price on the Nova-mesh 700 product by Propex (20 lb bag) by a local supplier. The price quoted was $20.45 per bag plus tax. I can not locate another supplier in my area to see if I am getting a fair price. Can anyone advise if this is the going rate on this product.
Thanks,
Lentz
Hi Lentz:
I would suggest you have your supplier furnish the specs for this product. I don't know of Nova-Mesh 700, but Propex's Novomesh product is for use as secondary reinforcement. Quoting from the manufacturer ...
"Novomesh® |
A combination of micro-synthetic and either macro-synthetic or steel fibers, Novomesh offers a comprehensive approach to flaw and crack resistance throughout the lifespan of most concrete applications."
It replaces neither vertical nor horizontal reinforcement. It is not structural fiber.
So please do let us know what you find from the supplier, and ask the supplier specifically whether it is a structural fiber, and is there test data showing the use of the product in lieu of structural (primary) reinforcement.
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Edited on Mar-17-2007
Novomesh does come in various configurations, and Novomesh 700 is a structural fiber (formerly SI Vertiforce) and that is the one for ICF wall applications -- see the Application Table from www.fibermesh.com |
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Regards!
Yogi Anand, D.Eng, P.E.
Energy Efficient Building Network LLC
http://www.energyefficientbuild.com |
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Ian with ICF Builders
Posts:0
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| 03/17/2007 2:36 PM |
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I would contact the manufacturer..... I've been using this fiber for years...formerly SI Vertiforce.
Not only does it replace conventional steel reinforcing, it performs exceptionally well. These fibers are not a "do all end all", they have their place in concrete applications...do they replace ALL reinforcing? Depends on the application. When using these fibers in ICF, they replace "wall reinforcing" but don't replace lintel steel, whether they replace other normally required reinforcing is design dependent.
When you contact the manufacturer, ask about the performance of these fibers in comparison to conventional steel reinforced concrete at the FPED testing.....The walls with fibers performed well above conventional methods.
My own 6000sf shop slab 6" thick is reinforced with these fibers, no reinforcing steel. We drive an 18000# lift on the shop floor all the time. The slab is 4 years old....absolutely no cracks or structural failure. I have used these fibers in nearly every concrete application and have yet to have any negative performance feedback.
Previous posts here are the very reason the value of this forum has lost credibility. If you haven't used it nor researched the products or methods that people ask here, then just how do you feel absolutely qualified to disseminate improper information? This simple thread has generated several questioning emails to me regarding past and future projects of ours that have or will incorporate the use of these fibers.
I'm not a practicing structural engineer but do have an engineering and architecture background and am dangerous enough to know that it is a smart move to have licensed individuals specify methods and means that I ask them to look into. Some people need to stick to what they know when answering posts....this forum is a public forum and what gets posted here may affect more potential or existing projects than the one in question. I often wonder how many people look into ICF and during their research, they read specific posts here and end up forgetting about ICF because of some erroneous or out of context "fact" they read here. |
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yogia
Registered Users
Posts:78
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| 03/17/2007 10:34 PM |
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Hi Ian:
Thanks for sharing with us your very satisfactory experience with the use of SI VertiForce fibers. The SI Vertiforce was a structural fiber. You told us about the slab on grade application where you have had crack free service from a slab with toughness for heavy equipment. How about sharing with us your experience with the use of structural fibers in the walls ... such as how much fiber you had to use to replace most if not all of the vertical steel. I do understand that you would have used conventional rebars as dowels at interface with other components, and for lintels.
The use of structural fibers to replace most of the structural steel would be a big advantage -- less labor, less resistance to concrete flow, less honeycombing, and so forth. Even if the the cost with using the fibers is not less than using the rebars, it is still a big plus.
It is my understanding that Novomesh 700 is the new name or it is equivalent to what was SI Vertiforce. Novomesh does come in various configurations and the 700 configuration is the one that is suitable for ICF wall applications.
Non-structural fibers do not replace primary steel -- non-structural fibers can only replace secondary steel that is needed for shrinkage and temperature control.
I understand that you got upset with the previous posts and I am glad you set the record straight by providing meaningful information by posting your very satisfactory experience with the use of structural fibers, namely SI Vertiforce. In my previous post I was talking about non-structural fibers. By the way not all novomesh configurations are suitable for replacing vertical steel in walls -- so if I can edit my previous post I will clarify that Novomesh 700 (replacement or equivalent to SI Vertiforce) is a structural fiber and the fiber manufacturer has tested the product for its application in ICF walls to replace most if not all of vertical steel. |
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Regards!
Yogi Anand, D.Eng, P.E.
Energy Efficient Building Network LLC
http://www.energyefficientbuild.com |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
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| 03/18/2007 10:48 AM |
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I agree the use of structural fibers needs to be evaluated in comparison to what could be called a "normally reinforced" wall. These products are not the save-all, end-all saviour for our industry. They have a use when used in the proper context and with the proper respect asociated with their use.
As an example, structural fibers do work well with a slab, however...an interior slab! It is my understanding that exterior use causes future surface staining. That may well be only a cosmetic issue, but it's probably not that simple, really! |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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Ian with ICF Builders
Posts:0
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| 03/18/2007 9:23 PM |
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In Texas, Baekert steel fibers are a "typical spec" for applications such as road bridge decks etc...... The same shop application that I used the Vertiforce has the same configuration for the aprons which are exterior...broom finished....no staining, no visible detection of the steel fibers unless you look long and hard for evidence. We have used these fibers for nearly every ICF application from basement, saferoom, retaining wall to multistory construction...all under the "supervision" of structural engineers. No, the fibers do not replace all reinforcing steel in every application, but for the cost of the fiber, it is nearly always a money saver vs. conventional methods. The US is far behind the world when it comes to the acceptance of steel fibers in concrete.....just like the US is far behind places such as Germany on the acceptance of the performance of EPS as an insulation vs. that of fiberglass batt (fiberglass batt does not compare to EPS in any way)...but our code criteria is based on antiquated analysis that in my opinion is controlled by "interests" and is not conducive to the introduction of better technologies.....The US might just as well consider itself the 3rd world when it comes to building technology. What country in the world has the highest per capita death by fire in the residence?? Our litigious "opportunity" doesn't help either. Thanks,
Ian |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
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| 03/18/2007 11:30 PM |
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Posted By Ian with ICF Builders on 03/18/2007 9:23 PM
The US is far behind the world when it comes to the acceptance of steel fibers in concrete.....just like the US is far behind places such as Germany on the acceptance of the performance of EPS as an insulation vs. that of fiberglass batt (fiberglass batt does not compare to EPS in any way)...but our code criteria is based on antiquated analysis that in my opinion is controlled by "interests" and is not conducive to the introduction of better technologies.....The US might just as well consider itself the 3rd world when it comes to building technology.
Ian,
you are so correct. But, it's not just Building Technology. It's just about everything. I read this today:
Currently, the average mileage of American cars is around 20MPG, this is less than the average mileage of the Ford Model T, 25MPG.
So, basically, big money, is preventing us from enjoying the fruits of technological advancement.
Sad isn't it? |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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