Can I use PEX for solar panels?
Last Post 01 Oct 2009 01:28 PM by mt6. 6 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
mt6User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:9

--
26 Sep 2009 12:19 PM
My first post to the forum, but I've been lurking for a long time. I've been building our house for 4 and 1/2 years now. Mostly just trim and cabinetry left. It's a ranch with a walk out basement, about 2450 sqft per floor. I used Form Tech ICFs from the basement to the top of the walls. The basement walls are 8" of concrete and the main floor walls are 6". R50 insulation in ceiling an R30 over garage. I have 3/4" pex in the basement slab and 1/2" in the gypcrete on the main floor. About 1100 sqft of wide plank pine on the main floor, ~150 sqft tile, ~200 vinyl, and the rest carpet. The 600 sq ft garage also has tubing but no isulation under the slab. On Craigslist I picked up 9 4'x8' panels and a 400 gallon storage tank very reasonably. I'm guessing the panels were put up in the 80s so there definitely not pristine but they pressure test fine. The panels weigh 190 lbs. dry. The house is at 7000' in Northern Colorado. The house is angled to maximize the mountain view. I put 4 panels vertically on the side of the garage and they get sun from sunrise to about 2 PM DLST. the other 5 will be angled at 65 degrees to maximize for winter heating and they get sun from ~10 AM until sunset. I also have a 92% efficient forced air furnace. I plan to hold off on installing the boiler so I can see how the solar panels contribute. I will use copper pipe on the outside of the house to connect the panels together but I would like to use PEX to run the lines in the house. I've seen some instruction say to only use copper. I would like to use a pex coil in the storage tank, another coil to preheat DHW, and another for the radiant heat. In the warm months I will probably cover the 5 panel array because I can't use that much hot water. So after that story my question is: Will pex stand up to the heat produced by the solar panels or do I need to use copper?
rykertestUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:202

--
27 Sep 2009 02:17 PM
I would not use pex. 1) It can't be exposed to sunlight for very long at all. Even a month can cause permenant damage (it becomes brittle). I'm not sure if you were going to have it runing outside or not but thats something to consider. Also 2) Pex's upper limit for water temp is about 200 degrees if memory serves. The solar water systems we sell forbid pex in any way as the water in our systems can easily reach 300 degrees between the tank and the evacuated tubes. For as little piping is needed to get to your storage tank, I would just use cooper. it won't be cost prohibitive in that small amount and it will be done right. Save pex for the house distribution after the storage tank. Of course thats just my opinion.
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
28 Sep 2009 04:14 PM
The qualified answer is "yes", you can even use them in lo-temp collectors:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Overview.htm

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Overview.htm#Collectors

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXCollector/PEXCollector.htm

The guy runs the collector loops at atmospheric pressure, uses a big coil HDPE as the potable water heat exchanger, but you could use PEX there as well:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/TankConstruction.htm

For efficiencies sake you need to insulate the PEX exterior to the house, which would pretty much take care of sunlight embrittlement issues, and you have to take pains to ensure that you keep the operating temps under 200F with some margin. Having a large buffer tank helps moderate daily swings when there's low heat loads, but won't save you from the seasonal overheating issues.

For space heating you'll do as-well or better in snowy areas by mounting them vertical, not the "latitude + 15" rule of thumb. When there's snow on the ground more than half the daily take into a flat panel can be from scattered light, not just the direct sunlight. This will limit the amount of seasonal shading you need to do to keep peak temps under control in the shoulder seasons. This li'l bit of analysis might help you want to fine-tune the angle on year-round DHW panels:

http://www.hawaiirdp.org/hetl/AdvisoryGroup/tilt-az-paper-3z13.pdf

You'd probably do well to set it up as a glycol loop on the panels, and separate heat exchangers for the heating loop & the DHW pre-heat. You slab temp requirements will be well below DHW temps- running the panels at the lower slab temp will increase the efficiency of the collectors by quite a bit, but limits your DHW to pre-heat only status during most of the heating season, but since space heating will likely be the larger average load, that's OK.

The same guy with the PEX-plumbed drainback collectors also did a solar-only radiant floor retrofit on his house a few years back, also running at atmospheric pressure:

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/solarshed.htm

(He lives at about your altitude & climate, but several degrees north of you. Ping him via email for sanity-checking.)

If you decide to go the atmospheric pressure system route, be sure to use bronze pumps- iron pumps won't last very long in oxygen rich water.

rykertestUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:202

--
28 Sep 2009 05:31 PM
what Dana said. lol
NRT.RobUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1741

--
29 Sep 2009 08:01 AM
NO, NO, NO... never use pex in a solar system. In the event of any kind of significant failure, a solar system can melt pex in a hurry, with any kind of panels or collectors on any kind of system. using pex on a solar loop is a horrible idea. horrible, bad, should never be done by anyone, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

there is NO SUCH THING as a failsafe that can guarantee that sort of failure can never happen. drainbacks can fail to drain back for various reasons. glycol systems obviously are an issue. none of the failsafes mentioned on that website are "fail safe". they are manual solutions or perhaps, if you're lucky, workable solutions as long as nothing critical fails. the website suggests covering your panels with a cloth when you get too hot!!! putting a cloth over your collectors???? really??? that's a safety feature??? you've got to be kidding me.

critical things will fail. when they do, what happens? for this problem, with copper, not much. worst case you'll blow a pressure relief valve. with pex, you melt the pipes and rain superhot liquid down from whereever it melts first. not a good scenario. do not do this.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
Dana1User is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6991

--
29 Sep 2009 10:24 AM
Posted By NRT.Rob on 09/29/2009 8:01 AM
NO, NO, NO... never use pex in a solar system. In the event of any kind of significant failure, a solar system can melt pex in a hurry, with any kind of panels or collectors on any kind of system. using pex on a solar loop is a horrible idea. horrible, bad, should never be done by anyone, ever, for any reason whatsoever.

there is NO SUCH THING as a failsafe that can guarantee that sort of failure can never happen. drainbacks can fail to drain back for various reasons. glycol systems obviously are an issue. none of the failsafes mentioned on that website are "fail safe". they are manual solutions or perhaps, if you're lucky, workable solutions as long as nothing critical fails. the website suggests covering your panels with a cloth when you get too hot!!! putting a cloth over your collectors???? really??? that's a safety feature??? you've got to be kidding me.

critical things will fail. when they do, what happens? for this problem, with copper, not much. worst case you'll blow a pressure relief valve. with pex, you melt the pipes and rain superhot liquid down from whereever it melts first. not a good scenario. do not do this.

It's not even clear if the surplus Craiglist panels in question can be operated in drainback mode, so many aspects of Gary Reysa's home-built systems may not apply.  But tolerance for issues like melt-out risk tends to be a hallmark of DIY hackers & engineers like Gary.

Professionals would (should, could) NEVER take an approach that required more than the most minimal maintenance & operation by a disinterested homeowner, but those willing to manage it can do OK.

Vertically mounted panels with designed-in seasonal overhangs for minimizing summertime gain can have quite reasonable stagnation temps.  (This should be measured, not just calculated, of course.)  Movable shades can work well for the active & adventurous. (Something rigid & quite opaque, like OSB & sliding door track would be preferable to a flimsy fabric solution though.) 

IIRC Reysa measured the stagnation temps at various mounting angles as a method of determining how much angle he could get away with to avoid melting the PEX, and by running the system at atmospheric pressure, the "rain of superhot liquid" in the event of a melt out is more likely to be dribble than an out & out storm.  He makes up for the performance hit of higher mounting angles with more panel (since it's so cheap.)  I've definitely seen scarier solar hacks than that, eh? :-)  He still might put a float switch in his tank to stop his pump & limit the volume if the PEX  leaks (from meltout or other). 

Wirsbo claims to be at the 26 year point of an ongoing test @ 203F & 151psi for their PEX- 200F seems like a safe stagnation temp, if it can be brought that low.  The actual melting point of PEX most often quote is "around 270F".  Running it at atmospheric pressure in drainback mode you're unlikely to see a slug of 250F water the way you can in a pressurized loop, but you could conceivably see some 250F+ steam if you let the panels get hot enough in stagnation.  Reysa limits his storage temp to 140F, so there's quite a bit of chillin' goin' on with the water entering a stagnating panel. But the fact that he's letting the panels stagnate whenever the storage is topped off @ 140F means he's probably not seeing PEX melting temps even in the panel (they're still there & not leaking internally- so far anyway... :-) ) I don't think his risk of scalding or home damage is great, but it's still non-zero.  The fact that the PEX in the panel limits the location of a melt out leak pretty much to the panel. This would NOT be the case with a copper panel  allowed to stagnate to temps as high as 270F or more.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear in the qualifications of my "qualified answer" as I should have been.  Yes, you can use PEX if you can verify by design & test that you can keep stagnation temps under control, and are willing to manage, monitor & maintain the system carefully (if not as obsessively as Reysa, with his ongoing datalogging & system tweaking.) 

With the surplus panels you should be able to get a good sense of the stagnation temps in a S-facing vertical mounting NOW, since the highest temps are likely to occur in the late-summer/early-fall when the midday sun is a bit lower and the days are still pretty warm, minimizing panel losses.  Building overhangs to kill late-spring/early summer midday gain isn't rocket science either.  If you decide you need more summer BTUs at the lower temps of a partially shaded vertical mount, if have the space, the cost of more surplus panels is also not very much, but separate DHW and space heating systems are probably still a good idea, since the temperature requirements are different enough.

Personally, I prefer pressurized systems with a glycol loops & HX, but I'd still go for the vertical mount & overhangs,  even panel shades to limit heat-dumping requirements for the space heating panels, whether it's low enough temp to use PEX or not.  But "can you", use PEX with solar plumbing well, yeah, kinda, if...


mt6User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:9

--
01 Oct 2009 01:28 PM
Thanks everyone for the info. I kind of suspected that it wouldn't be a good idea for the hot water from the panels. I had always planned to use copper outdoors. I think I can still use PEX coils in my storage tank as the heat exchanger. It's unlikely that the storage tank would exceed 200 degrees.

Drain back is not an option for me. The piping for the panels on the side of the garage will have to go through the attic across the garage and then down to the basement storage tank. There will be antifreeze in the loop. These panels should be usable year around.

I plan to cover the other 5 panel array with painted OSB during the warmer months. Mounting these vertically wont work in the location I have. There is a window in the middle of the wall, so to keep it esthetically pleasing I need to tilt the panels to get the height low enough. I also plan to bring them out from the wall some so I can use the space behind them as storage.

I may do some additional plumbing so I can change the water flow to another heat exchanger so I can utilize some of the lower temp water for the radiant in the early morning. Maybe also do some more so that I can heat the water heater. I put in an electric water heater when I was building the house before I had propane.

Thanks again for your inputs.
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 128 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 128
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement