tankless system advice
Last Post 25 Aug 2010 06:07 PM by Dana1. 33 Replies.
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heathUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 04:19 AM
Hi I have a navien tankless it modulates up to 175000 btu this will be running my dhw also 3 zones of radiant heat.  The area that I am heating is about 1100 sq feet of daylight basement. Location is washington state.  I would like to use a heat exchanger to heat the floor along with the alpha with actuators on the zones.  I will be mostly keeping temp a 55 deg. but want to heat slab quickly as possible.  How do I determine size of the heat exchanger  navien modulates from 17000 to 175000 btu?  Also how to size the pump on the dhw loop through the heat exchanger?  Does this system make sense of are there better options? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.            

Thanks, Heath
NRT.RobUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 08:45 AM
you'd have to define "as quickly as possible".

It would be a waste to size your heat exchanger for any more than something like 75kBTU/hr. you'd be unlikely to get heat delivered to the concrete any faster than that.

do 6" o.c. pipe if you want to maximize responsiveness.

be aware that if you are changing temperature on any kind of regular basis you don't really want to set it back with concrete.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
BadgerBoilerMNUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 09:59 AM
Using a tank-less water heater for space heating is the one of the hardest designs going.

It is a "water heater".

A boiler can be effectively pressed into service for space AND domestic hot water, but the tank-less lacks the basic design characteristics for this special duty.

If you want to do both with a water heater, look to one made for the purpose. I specify a "tank" type water heater for ease of installation, better available control systems, longer life, less maintenance and better efficiency. If you want GREEN, you will need a condensing appliance.

Shy away from the online guys promoting the "tank-less" DIY combi-systems. They are anything but.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
ilgeoUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 10:02 AM
What do you have in place already? How did you insulate the slab?
heathUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 12:55 PM
I have the navien hooked up and running the domestic it is the commercial unit with all stainless heat exchangers and piping. The slab isn insulated with 2 inch r 10 under concrete and between slab and stemwalls also the joists and walls are super insulated. The domestic comes out of the navien and dumps into a 65 gallon electric hot water heater then goes to fixtures thiis can be re routed past electric hot water heater simply by turning a few ball valves. The basement has electric fan forced heat as well so it does not need to heat instantly with the radiant. This is a weekend cabin would like to turn radiant on friday eves and have somewhat warm floors in the winter by sat the concrete is 5 inches thick. Thanks for the advice and oh the tubing was installed on 12 inch centers.
ilgeoUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 01:10 PM
DIY or will you contract the work? Have you done a load calculation?
heathUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 02:21 PM
I have not done a load calc and will probably do the manifold  myself unless I can find someone qualified in my area. So far I have done all the work myself.  the supply temp can be set to any degree since my electric water heater can bring the domestic to 125 after the tankless.  So far I am extremely happy with the navien works great for the domestic. thanks for any advice Heath
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19 Aug 2010 02:43 PM
Some thoughts..
5" will take awhile to warm up but I understand why u want to do it. I would recommend that you set the space with floor heat around 5* warmer than the rest of the house when unoccupied as that will cause it to run as it takes on part of the load for rest of house. During construction I have seen 65* basement keep a tight ranch at 58 to 60* also the rest of the house will warm up quickly on FA and you also store more heat in the event of a power outage. So maybe try 50 up and 55 to58 down and see how it goes. Then start with load calc and design from there. You will need a heat exchanger, 1 bronze pump, 1 CI pump, expansion tank, PRV and dual check, strainers, air eliminator, pump relay, manifold , and zone valves. What do you mean your electric water can bring the water temp to 125*? Are the elements hooked up? They should not be wired to line voltage.
Dana1User is Offline
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19 Aug 2010 05:17 PM
Posted By ilgeo on 19 Aug 2010 02:43 PM
Some thoughts..
5" will take awhile to warm up but I understand why u want to do it. I would recommend that you set the space with floor heat around 5* warmer than the rest of the house when unoccupied as that will cause it to run as it takes on part of the load for rest of house. During construction I have seen 65* basement keep a tight ranch at 58 to 60* also the rest of the house will warm up quickly on FA and you also store more heat in the event of a power outage. So maybe try 50 up and 55 to58 down and see how it goes. Then start with load calc and design from there. You will need a heat exchanger, 1 bronze pump, 1 CI pump, expansion tank, PRV and dual check, strainers, air eliminator, pump relay, manifold , and zone valves. What do you mean your electric water can bring the water temp to 125*? Are the elements hooked up? They should not be wired to line voltage.

If I understand him correctly, the Navien is plumbed in series with the tank, with a ball-valve tank-bypassing option, not a recirculation pump controlled by the tank's aquastat letting the Navien maintain the tank's temp. I'm not exactly sure why he plumbed it that way- it short-cycles the Navien on every draw with or without the electric tank, so there's no buffering advantage, and the output of a 175KBTU/hr Navien is more than enough for a cabin even with glacier-cold incoming water. (I doubt there are multiple showers in use at any one time, eh?)

In most of WA an unheated basement slab will already be ~55F in an unheated house, and if the house is reasonably tight the average heat load for maintaining 55F is quite modest even in winter (the exception being at some higher altitude locations.)  Bumping the basement slab up to maintain 65F in the basement would be a significant boost in standby energy for a weekender-cabin- up from "nearly-nothing" to "really-something".

Got a zip code for this cabin?
heathUser is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 03:01 AM

The electric hot water heater is after the navien the electric was there already and newer so I decided to keep it as an option in case I run out of propane sometimes when rented will turn on only the electric to prevent over usage of hot water.  There are three showers one with two heads minus all restrictors and 2 laundries in the summer its not uncommon to have several things running.  There are several ball valves that allow me to bypass navien completely with the domestic or bypass the electric completely power outages and so forth the system may be complicated but I like options.  I have tees on in and out supply on the navien ready for the heat exchanger loop.  Probably should have done a load calc but didnt know how i figured the 175000 max btu was probably overkill and also had the fan forced heaters for supplementary heat and also to take the basement up to temp initially. On the midfloor I have a propane wall heater 80000 btu two 2000 watt wall heaters a woodstove and firplace top floor just baseboards in the bedrooms.  It seems to heat up quickly in the winter.  The radiant downstairs is to add comfort since it is a colored concrete floor it is pretty cold even when the air is warmed initially.  I have two runs at 265 in the main room zone One run of 100 for bathroom zone One run of 300 for the sunroom.  The sunroom is all windows with water proof deck above and french doors from the basement this room has only radiant to heat but may not be on all of the time I imagine there would be alot of heat loss in the sunroom.  The bronze pump that was recomended in the heat exchanger loop will it be turned on by the controls when radiant call for heat and will it shut off and give priority to the domestic if the controller has priority built in?  How many gallons per min should the bronze pump push through the loop? Does an alpha seem like a good fit for the zone circulator pump I know its more money but I saved alot doing all this myself so far.  One more question I have heard of a thermostat that can be adjusted over the phone lines good for vacation homes is this true? Probably expensive though.  This website has been a great help and so have all of the professionals your advice is greatly appreciated Thanks Oh zip is 98370 Ive never seen basement go below 53 degrees on the coldest days of winter with no heat on.  

heathUser is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 03:43 AM

Should I go with a 20  plate or 30 plate heat exchanger?

NRT.RobUser is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 09:22 AM
impossible to answer with any surety without knowing your temperature requirements.
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ilgeoUser is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 10:04 AM
Heath what model do Navien do you have as there are several different commercial 175k? Need to do a load calc before you size your HX. The HX supply pump would be controlled by a set point control or a reset control.
heathUser is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 01:35 PM
IT is a cc210 without built in buffer tank and built in recirc  The newer model number would be Np 210 since they changed model numbers
Dana1User is Offline
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20 Aug 2010 06:50 PM
Heating design-temps in your neighborhood (within 20 crow-miles from my brother's neighborhood in Port Orchard, most likely) are in the low-mid teens F. If this place is reasonably tight I'd be surprised if the total heat-load ever breaks 50KBTU/hr, but a lot depends on glazing area & type- do you a great view of the mountains & water through large single-pane picture windows & sliding doors there? ;-)

Any good heating design starts with calculated heat load estimate, but since you've already implemented the radiant loops and have multiple backup sources it hardly matters- the radiation is what it is, and one could work backwards from a max temps & BTU/hr rates that would ever be reasonable for the radiation type & area to come up with the HX sizing.

Calculate what your radiation can deliver, at an appropriate temp & flow, and what the delta-T at that flow. (Every 2gpm x F degree is ~1kbtu.) Make sure that the delta-T and flow on the Navien side adds up to the same number and has at least a 20-30F delta-T even if the in/out temps are different from the heating-side temps, and be sure the HX can deliver it at the temperature differences you're running. It can be implemented/tweaked in a spreadsheet, and you may want to use multi-speed pumps do dial it in when you discover your head assumptions or other calculations were wrong. :-)

Assuming 25F delta @ 4gpm with 115-125F output on the Navien would be a likely starting point for delivering ~50KBTU/hr to the HX with slab-radiant temps on the heating loop side but this isn't a design, its a WAG at a starting point. Don't know what the head is on the Navien or HX are so specing a pump is a bit premature. (Similar sized Takagis don't need monster pumps to get 3-4gpm though.) On a cold start the slab will be delivering 55F-ish water, and your initial delta & modulated fire at the Navien will be higher, but as the slab warms up the modulation on the heater will throttle back. To keep the slab from overshooting the room temp it's best to have a PID (or similar) control algorithm in the thermostat (slab-stats are good too.) Odds are this will be overkill, and dialing back the temp & flow will work fine. It's really crude, but in the absence of REAL numbers, it's probably not too-too far off. It could be it'll settle in & deliver sufficient heat just fine at 2gpm with a 30F delta @ 115F out, which would be good for efficiency, but if you set it up reasonably you'll have a fairly wide tweaking range. (Rob's rough calc was 75K max out of your slab, but you'll likely never need that, and I wouldn't set it up for that, but you could easily need half that or more at 5AM during a cold snap if you're counting on the radiant to deliver the entire load.)

Design-by-web-forum isn't be the best approach, but if you get it close you can probably make it work. Making it work at best EFFICIENCY is another thing, but it's a weekend cabin, getting the last 3% out of it probably isn't critical. (If it were, you'd likely hire a competent designer and buy a mod-con rather than making a hobby out of designing heating systems around water heaters- a hobby I confess having indulged in myself... ;-) ) Ideally you'd be able to set it up with the output of the Navien running low gpm at domestic hot water temps, nothing under 110F if you're filling bathtubs, but not over 125F.
NRT.RobUser is Offline
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21 Aug 2010 10:34 AM
He wanted fast response, so I recommended he design for the max emitter output he could expect... wide dt startup conditions on a cold slab going through recovery. I just ballparked 30 BTUs/ln foot which actually is probably a little low for startup... 6" o.c.. With what he's got (12" o.c.) you could probably figure 40 BTUs/ft or more... or the 50k you mention, probably close enough.


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jonrUser is Offline
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21 Aug 2010 11:11 AM
I'm not sure what you want "quickly as possible" for, but it is much quicker to heat air than a slab - so a water-air heat exchanger delivering all 175K btu may be something to consider.

Think btu not # of plates when selecting a heat exchanger. Oversizing is ok.

heathUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2010 02:47 PM
Thanks guys for the advice Im starting to get ideas to finish this system for the cold months hoping to find someone skilled in my area to hire or may end up continuing to finish it myself. Most heat exchangers I look at talk about number of plates but dont mention btu?  Would not be opposed to hiring someone to guide me through this via phone or computer. Thanks Heath.
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23 Aug 2010 04:01 PM
If you have a set of plans, a heat load can be done. If you know available fuels and their cost, a heat source can be specified. If you have the heat load AND the heat source, then a plate heat exchanger can be sized using factory design software.

I design radiant floor systems and find competent installers all over North America, but rarely find a good excuse for using a tank-less water heater for space heating.

Of course, I do sell them for their intended purpose, but without outdoor reset and with 25%+ more fuel usage, the cheap solution is rarely the right solution.
MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com
Dana1User is Offline
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23 Aug 2010 05:12 PM
Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 23 Aug 2010 04:01 PM
If you have a set of plans, a heat load can be done. If you know available fuels and their cost, a heat source can be specified. If you have the heat load AND the heat source, then a plate heat exchanger can be sized using factory design software.

I design radiant floor systems and find competent installers all over North America, but rarely find a good excuse for using a tank-less water heater for space heating.

Of course, I do sell them for their intended purpose, but without outdoor reset and with 25%+ more fuel usage, the cheap solution is rarely the right solution.
Ah, but Morgan, as a heating professional you're locked out of the ENTERTAINMENT value of designing a Rube Goldberg contraption!

A 25% increase in fuel usage is negligible when you're talking about an intermittent use low heating load place such as this, and cheap may truly be "right" for the circumstance. But it's likely more like 10% difference, since as a 2-3 weekends/month kind of place the hot-water use over the summer exceeds the total space-heating costs (including 55F standby when unoccupied) when it's all said and done, and we're really talking more on the order of 10 gallons/year.  It's just not that cold there- average January temps are in the over ~40F range. So we're probably talking about burning 200 gallons of propane/year vs 180 gallons- 20 gallons, even if peak heat loads when occupied might be 40KBTU during record low cold snaps, I'd hazard they'll be burning only about 100gallons on space heating, the rest would be hot water.

The difference in up-front costs are harder to rationalize for 20 gallons or even 50 gallons of propane per year. If this were a  24/365 residence the argument for a mod-con would be easier to make, and should it ever BECOME a full time residence it's readily convertible to a mod-con driven system when the Navien burns out (or before, if the price of propane soars.)  Even the up front cost of the Navien probably isn't arguable on a fuel savings NPV basis, but probably does pretty well on "unhappy girlfriend/spouse taking a cold shower" convenience factors, not having to fire up the HW tank & wait when you first roll in.

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