I am building a SIPs home (about 4200 sq. ft.) on the Southern end of the Eastern Shore of Virginia. I got the name of a HVAC contractor from the Water Furnace regional rep for this area and thought everything was going fine. The first indication of trouble I had was when the well company (suggested by dealer) was nearly finished and were waiting for some equipment the HVAC guy was supposed to have on site. He evidently had some issues with the owner of the well company and told me to tell him to "kiss his a**". I went out and purchased the equipment needed myself for the well people to finish their job. I reported the problems to the regional rep from Water Furnace and he assured me that everything would be fine. I thought that Water Furnace stood behind their contractors, yet, I am still waiting for my job to be finished and it has been over a month since they were last here. Also, I have brought up the need for an ERV from the beginning and the HVAC contractor always says "no problem", although I do not see anything in place to facilate having this done. Does anyone have any similar experiences with Water Furnace and the HVAC people they suggest to handle their work? Also, does anyone have the contact information for anyone in Water Furnace I could talk to about this as the regional rep hasn't been much help? There have been a number of issues recently with this contractor and I am prepared to go to DPOR in Virginia as they handle and investigate all complaints of contractors. I don't want to go that route, but I am pushed to my limit.

I just wanted to add what I feel is a word of warning, concerning the reaction by Water Furnace themselves to all my problems. They sent me an email reply to my contact and I finally got in touch with the regional rep who first recommended this HVAC contractor. All I heard from both sources is that he is an independent contractor and they have no responsibility. It doens't seem to matter to them that they made the recommendation. Their only concern is that he pays for the equipment in a timely manner. So, anyone who even thinks of going with Water Furnace should do some extra homework to research the contractor they might recommend. All Water Furnace really cares about is making an equipment sale. All the bull on their web site about how they carefully train their contractors is only about giving them the knowledge to do the installation. They don't care that they are a reputable dealer. Buyer beware!

I found this from LINK

David Bullen says:

April 14th, 2007 at 4:13 pm

I have some first hand experience with geothermal heating/cooling which you might be interested.

My wife and I purchased a earth sheltered home in the NW suburbs of the Twin Cities in 1993. The home was 12 years old at the time and was about 2250 sq ft.. Propane was used to heat the home. When the existing furnace began giving us problems I started looking for a new heating plant and also wanted to add air conditioning to help control the humidity in the home. I thought that the concept of geothermal was a great idea and fit right into the other energy saving features of the home (solar hot water, full earth sheltering). Also, I wanted to eliminate the large propane tank on the property. I’m not comfortable with propane and Natural gas wasn’t (and still isn’t) available so really my only choice was electric resistance, air-to-air heatpump or geo. I knew electric resistance would be far too cosltly to operate and air-to-air just isn’t viable in this climate. So, I got bids from two different companies to supply the geo equipment and elected to go with a company that installed equipment manufactured by Water Furnace.

The system consisted of a inside unit and an outside closed loop. Because of the soil in our area is heavy clay it was decided to use four 150′ verical collectors connected together to form the heat collection/dissapation section and a down draft inside unit.

Because this was a rhetrofit, extensive outside work needed to be done. A well driller was brought in to install the loops and bring the loop inside to the utility room. This sub-contractor created a huge mess and actually created some problems with which we had to deal with over the rest of the time we owned the home.

Installation of the inside unit was quick and straight forward, the only snag was that the wrong unit was ordered. This unit had the same capacity as the one specified but had the water heating option installed. Rather than wait for a new unit to be shipped and wait we elected to go with the unit and not connect the water heating portion. (This was in early November and we needed heat!)

The entire installation cost $13,000 for equipment and labor. Our monthly energy bills at the time were about $250 (gas and electricity)without a/c. After the installation our energy costs dropped to about $150/mo with a/c. We owned the home for 12 years after the equiment was installed and it and itself worked flawlessly. It was quiet and did a good job of keeping our home warm in winter and comfortable in summer. Only on extreemly cold winter days did the extra resistance heat come on.

At the time of the installation some utilities were giving rebates on installation of energy saving heating equipment. Xcel, our utility company was not, but they did give us a price break during the heating season because the home was a “total electric” home.

Would I do it again? A qualified yes. If I were building new absolutely. Rhetrofit, no. I mentioned the loop installer created some problems. They broke drain tiles around the area where the loop came into the house, and disrupted the water shedding barriers. Whenever there were heavy snow melts or extreamly heavy rains we’d have water comming into the utility room that was impossible to stop.

Hope this helps.

I built a 4200 sq.ft home also, We moved in Feb.06.  We have had problems  with our Waterfurance from the beginning.  We noticed our KW usage go up as soon as the outside temp. did.  We are using the same winter and summer 4200 per. month.  The unit runs all the time. Our installor would try this and that. Change a value, Well, see how your bill is next month?  Waterfurance wouldn't send a factory rep. The installor had to ask  for him.  After Aug. 06 the installor said the compressor was out and changed that.  So now after a year, we are at the same place as last year.  We had to file a complaint with the state. ( Duct work violations)  I've also paid another waterfurance dealer to check.  He said the duct work was to small. 14'' round on a 3 to 6 ton EZ072 system.  I have Nu-wool insulation in my walls and ceilings, I've added window film to all my windows to help with the load.  Waterfurance has been no help.  I'm having to prove to them there's a problem.  I have 2 KW meters coming to add to the waterfurance and air handler.  I've also had a blower door test done.  Waterfurance just wants to sell units, there don't care about the customer.  So, our next step is the BBB for the installor and waterfurance, and then legal action. 
Regards RGT
KY

I built my home in 1999-2000, installing a waterfurnace (water furnace) unit with six 180' deep wells circulating glycol.  No contractor has been able to get the air out of my ground loop, so each time my waterfurnace stops and starts the noise is exceptionally loud and disturbing, all the while cavitation errosion is most likely eating away at the ground loop pumps.  I called waterfurnace their "technical experts" could not have and have never helped me.  ZERO WATER FURNACE SUPPORT.

walt

waltvino... where do you live? I have purged at least 50 ground loops. It is not that hard. Sorry you are having troubles. Maybe I can help.

Waterfurance has been helping me, somewhat.  The only thing they look at is there unit!!  The loop and duct  and installation work is not there problem ( So they say).  After two years we are still having problems with our unit?  In cooling mode, it run 24-7 and can't keep up.  I've had to pay for other HVAC installors for air flow test, blower door test.  On a new unit.   Please, Contact your State HVAC . Once you contact the waterfurance manager for your location, you will need to find out his boss.  Send E-mails and make phone calls to everyone.  Go to every HVAC  blog and bitch!  It's the only way to get there attention.  I feel your pain!!!
Regards, RT

If your unit runs 24-7 and can't keep it, it means one of two things. Either the unit is too small or the loop is two small or both. This comes back to whoever designed the system. If the design if faulty, the equipment has no chance of performing right. Ask the person who installed your system to see the design. If there is no design based on the heat load of your house and the thermal conductivity of your soil then he guessed at the size of your unit and loop. Installers undersize units and loops to keep the price down to get the sale. Unfortunately this happens a lot and the customer gets shafted. Sorry to hear about your problem. Is the installer still around?

Wow I am looking into using a horizontal ground loop or slinky type of installation in the far north west suburbs of Minneapolis. After reading all the threads about Water furnace and their lack of customer service I am having second thoughts. Is there any reputable dealer/installers in my area that have good customer services and know what they are doing from the start? I am looking to build a small energy efficient home using SIPs and as much energy efficient technology as we can afford with out going into too much debt. Some of these threads make me feel like I am looking at building a bottomless money hole literally throwing hard earned money down the pit. Any comments and advise is surely appreciated. Thanks Pauly

Pauly,

     It sounds like your're doing better than us from the start.  Our Waterfurance dealer/installor has or had a good rep.  Our duct work and design was awful. He used a sub. and a sub for the vertical loop.   If there is a problem with a system.  Waterfurance don't care about the loop or duct.  only there equipment.  They will not say anything about the dealer/installor.  Ask for a load cal, manual J and a duct design.  Hold back money, until the system works.  It took us 3 months to find out we had a problem.  Now it's two years later.
Best of luck.
RT

Well in defense of water furnace... I installed one 4 years ago in an open loop configuration and have had nothing but good feelings. I live in new england have a fairly large 4000 sq ft home runing a 3/5 ton unit.  It did replace a 20 year old freidrich unit so my ducting is large enought to support the large amount of air. The dealers in my area don't sell and install many units so their knowledge and skills may be compromised. I found the company contacts very helpful... most of my problems are taco valve related. Just installed a VFD pump (Franklin) and have noticed a drop in my electric bill. I use propane as my EM 3 stage. if i could just get the VFD line noise out of the system (trips x-10 lights) i'd be one happy camper 

Just another positive note about waterfurnace. We moved into a new construction development a year ago. The builder was pushing green construction methods and was recomending geothermal. We were one of the first ones to sign and pay deposit for one of the first homes built in the development and the builder included the cost of the geothermal hvac. Nice!

We've been very happy with the Waterfurnace Envision system that we have. No problems at all except me being stupid and messing up the programming on the thermostat (fixed with a couple of phone calls). Electricity bills averaged $135 over one year. Summer cooling set at 70, winter heat set at 67. House sq ft is 2600 (end unit condo so one shared wall).

We live in Lancaster, PA. Our builder is Millfield Construction (millfield.com) and the Waterfurnace hvac was done by JK Mechanical.

Pauly: Do you know that there is a Minnesota manufacturer of Geo Source heat pumps? It is ECONAR Energy Systems, with corporate offices in Elk River, MN. Visit LINK or call 800-432-6627 or 763-241-3110. They have been building Geo systems for cold climates for over 20 years.  They have many dealers in the NW Twin Cities area. Give them and call and you will find them to be very responsive and helpful to homeowners like yourself, too.  All the best. Geogirl.

 

We've had unbelievable problems with WF. 3 units in a house completed in 2004 (5800 sq ft) and this month we'll replace 2 units (only one under warranty after 2 years of repair attempts). Supposedly they'll be completely replaced in order to get the "green" tax credit AND a 10 year warranty.

Interestingly, for the other unit, for our Fall 08 basement remodel, the unit was "tapped" into after our WF dealer/installer determined that it was adequately sized to handle. We finished the remodel in October (the same month as the warranty expired). Last week, he said the compressor was shot as the general contractor allowed too much construction dirt/dust into the compressor. "Sorry about your luck..."

Not sure who's lying...who who's incompetent. I think I'll be 97 years old before I realize my energy savings payback...I could have burned Benjamins and been warmer for less...

Lord, what a bunch of nightmares.
All I can tell you is contractor matters. I do not hear complaints about Water Furnace in my area.
No, I'm not a WF dealer, but every buyer beware, geo companies train their dealers for 1 day to two weeks and if their equipment isn't malfunctioning, the contractor is to blame....not the manufacturer.
Ask for references.
Do your due dillegence and don't blame manufacturer for air in the loops, erv or other broken promises, they are powerless to fix these things.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't tell them if they have a bad seed, but you can't expect them to fix anything other than their product.
I've said repeatedly the contractor is more important than the brand. Believe it.
joe

I believe all the compressors in WF are sealed - so dust/dirt can't get it.

I noticed the install complaints are spread over 10 years.
I'm not sure it's a real smoking gun.
But I did send a link to this thread to the local WF guy.
J

Would like to add my 2 cents to the Waterfurnace thread on my recent experience with water furnance. Just got off the phone the their director of "customer service" Mr. Waterman and was suprised to find out that waterfurnace has no authorized dealers and pretty much washed their hands from any responsibility.
Now will get down to my real "bash" of the company. I have experienced waterflow/hi temp lock outs on one of my two split units for the last couple of years and until earlier this year we found a leak in the unit itself and resolved. Well a month after finding the resolution to this problem, my compressor in the other unit starts to go bad. Have to have it replaced, but my contractor tells me waterfurnace will only composate for partial replacement of the units and the remaining $700 - $1000 dollars of the replacement cost will be my responsibility and that my best bet in overcoming the addtional cost (paid $13000 for the unit installations (not counting loops)) is to contact Waterfurnace directly.
What a mistake this was:
So I contact their "customer service" to try to get an explaination of these addtional cost, after I just paid extreme cost to get these units in and all the additional electrical cost I am incurring for running on residual system.
What kind of response do I get, "they will look at it", "there techs are looking at it" .... This went on for 1.5 months, with no initiated conversations back to me or even a call, plus bunch of lies that they are looking into it. Well I get my compressor replaced in early June, and still Waterfurnace has done nothing. No visits, no request for service records, nothing. They didn't even start requesting a site-visit from my contractor until June (After the unit is already fixed?).
So I call to talk to the Director of Customer Service today, and they admit no fault on their part and had no problems with the way this situation has been handled - Or the "lack" of handling for the last 4 months.
DO NOT BUY WATERFURNACE EQUIPMENT, IF YOU WANT WARRANTY/CUSTOMER SERVICE/QUALITY EQUIPMENT/PIECE OF MIND!!!! THEY ARE NOT THERE FOR SUPPORT OF THEIR SYSTEMS, ONLY TO MAKE THE QUICK BUCK!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS ONE OF THE WORST EXPERIENCES I HAVE EVER HAD WITH CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!

I've found that ANY online forum tends to be gripe city - no matter if it's geo installs, microwaves, General Motors or even Honda/Toyota products.

I had a new WF Envision installed 01/2009 so yes, I do get the new 30% tax credit.  Our home is vintage 1980's with 2x4 construction, relatively well sealed but windows are starting to fail.  We replaced what I think was the original (but repaired by previous owner) 60% gas 130K BTU furnace with a 4 ton Envision ND049.

Minnesota certainly has it's temperature extremes of +/- 140º.  My install went relatively well, considering January temps were hampering outdoor drilling.

We went from keeping the house at 67º in the winter to 70º and tend to use the AC a bit more often as well.  Except for a bit more noise on both stages than I expected, we're very happy with the unit, install and vastly increased comfort.  I'll have the contractor come out later this summer to do their 1st checkup (they said to wait until we've had a couple of AC cycles on the unit).

Comfort aside, I really am realizing an energy savings of around 30% pricewise.  That's comparing what I paid for conventional HVAC last year to what I'm paying so far this year, month-by-month.  Rates are more this year but I'm still saving $$.

I can perhaps report a full analysis after our first full year but so far, we're happy campers.

Joe if you have noise I may be able to help you. Open the door and look at your compressor at the base where it is mounted to the frame there is a bolt that is used during shipping that should have been removed during install. You would not belive how many are left in the unit. If your system is instaled right it is very quiet. Let me know what you find. Curtis