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Geothermal HP cost and viability question
Last Post 17 Mar 2008 07:39 PM by engineer. 12 Replies.
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LaurelPark
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 13 Mar 2008 06:00 PM |
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I'm re-building an old house on my property, and I'm getting to the point where I need to decide whether a geothermal heat pump system is going to be viable or not (mostly from the cost standpoint). Here is a little information on my place:
I'm located near the San Francisco Bay Area, and the weather here is quite mild (hardly ever gets below 30 degrees, and the soil temp 2+ feet down stays around 60 degrees all the time). I don't need air conditioning in the summer, but it would be a nice-to-have sometimes. The house itself is a single-story U-shaped place that is pretty much split down the middle into two separate living zones of about 1000 sf each, so I envision two separate heating systems - one for the master bedroom and livingroom on one side, and the other for the kitchen and two small bedrooms (which we never use) on the other side. I haven't ever lived in the place, but during the re-build I'm installing R-30 insulation in the exterior walls, and R-45 in the attic. All the calcs I've been able to do online show that two 2-ton geothermal units should do the job to keep each side of the place reasonably warm. During the re-build, I've installed insulated forced-air ducting to all the rooms in anticipation of eventually installing some type of forced-air system.
The place is on about 7 acres of land, and I've got plenty of space for a ground-loop system. I also have two very ancient, but in excellent shape, hand-dug wells (one on each side of the house) that are about 6' x 6' square and 35 feet deep - they are full to the brim all winter, and about half-full in the summer. The water coming out of them is a constant 60 degrees all year round. I'm in a canyon, and right next to a creek, so the bottom-soil is almost all fine river sand - and the water table in the winter is literally a couple inches below ground-level. I own a backhoe, so I'd be planning to do all the trenching for the ground-loop myself. To decrease the amount of trenching, and hopefully improve efficiency, I'm also thinking about using the existing hand-dug wells as part of the ground-loop.
The place is on-grid, but I have a 6.4kW solar system that can supply all the electricity needs for the place.
The big question is this - considering that all the ducting is in place, I've run 60A 240v circuits to the spots in the attic that I'd like to install the two furnaces, I can do all the trenching and pipe-laying myself, what kind of cost would I be looking at for an installer to come in and put the unit in place, hook it up, and test it to make sure it's working OK? Alternatively, is there any way that I could do the whole install myself, or is that just not feasible for some reason? What would be a ballpark cost of equipment in that case? I'm looking at Water Furnace Envision 2-ton systems, by the way - and whatever I install is going to be at the top end of the efficiency scale.
Thanks very much in advance!
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Topgas
 New Member
 Posts:63
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| 13 Mar 2008 08:56 PM |
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I just came back from the NESEA show in Boston and tripped over something you might want to take a look at. There's a company that produces a air to air unit that they claim is as good as a geothermal system without all the cost in tearing up your property. This unit called the Acadia claims to be different than older air to air and might be worth looking at. I'm sure some people on this site can chime in on this, I really don't know anything about it. |
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tuffluckdriller
 Advanced Member
 Posts:630

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| 13 Mar 2008 10:01 PM |
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With your mild climate, I might have to agree with Topgas. When there isn't a high heating and/or cooling load, it's a little hard to justify geothermal with economics. Air source heat pumps could possibly be the better fit. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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LaurelPark
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 13 Mar 2008 10:15 PM |
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Thanks for the replies - it's good information. Considering, though, that I plan to do all the 'hard' work related to trenching and piping, and I hate the look and sound of the external air source units - and the area that I want to install the ground loop is just begging to be torn up (something I consider fun), I'm still interested in looking at geothermal. The big question would be about the price - if it's on the order of $5k per 2-ton unit plus another $5k for tubing, connectors, etc., I'd be all over it.
I should also note that, even though we're in a mild climate, energy prices here are through the roof. We have electricity, and typically a kWh of power comes in at around $0.16. A lot of that is offset by my solar system, and I'd certainly like to go with the most efficient system out there to make maximum use of the solar investment I've made.
That said, and assuming a geothermal heat pump system isn't worth the effort for me, what are the best air source units out there? And, out of curiosity, how does the cost of materials for the two different systems compare? If they're about the same, I'd be happy to do the extra labor required to do a geothermal unit myself just for the experience of doing it.
Thanks again. |
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Palace Geothermal
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1609
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| 13 Mar 2008 10:44 PM |
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Posted By LaurelPark on 03/13/2008 10:15 PM The big question would be about the price - if it's on the order of $5k per 2-ton unit plus another $5k for tubing, connectors, etc., I'd be all over it.
Thanks again. Your numbers sound about right, but you need to be finding someone in California who will work with you on this. As fas I know, none of the posters on this board are out that way. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Eric D
 Basic Member
 Posts:104
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| 14 Mar 2008 06:37 AM |
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LaurelPark, First off I would like to compliment you on your description and write up in general. Nice job. It sounds like you have a very nice place.
I have one concern with your plan. With the temps in your area and the insulation levels you have on the wall and attic I believe you will be over capacity. Here is my reasoning. Here in Michigan we sometimes have winter temps as low as -15°F. I have a 3.5 ton single stage open loop system that will hold the house at 70°F without any other auxiliary heat down to 11°F outside temp. My system reaches 100% duty cycle around 14°F outside temp. My walls are r20 and r40 attic, and I'm heating 2270 sq ft. main and second level plus 1450 in my basement.
Comparing to my temps, square footage and insulation to your area and home, I believe two 2 ton units will be overkill. Most contractors will size the system to be over capacity to insure the homeowner doesn't complain that the system “runs too much” or “doesn't heat fast enough”. Your home seems to be designed around efficiency. If this is the theme then you may want to look at smaller units that run more frequent. Some of the other advantages of a system that runs more is better air quality and more even temperatures throughout the house.
Your choice of Water Furnace would be fine. I prefer the Copeland scroll compressors which your Water Furnace should have. On your ductwork, you mentioned that it is insulated. Is it internally insulated? If not, be sure to have the inlet and outlet internally insulated for noise control.
Your project sounds like a fun one and I see no reason that you couldn't complete the installation yourself. The problem you will run into on a do it yourself install, is getting the hardware and information. Warranty could be an issue as well. If you really wish to complete the system yourself and knowing the issues of roadblocks mentioned above, I believe you can find ways to deal with them to allow you to do what you want.
I wish you the best with your new geosystem and at sometime I would really like to hear more about your 6.4kW solar system. If you can put something like that together, the geosystem should be a piece of cake!
Regards,
Eric D |
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| Eric D<br>Southern Michigan |
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LaurelPark
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 14 Mar 2008 12:39 PM |
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Thanks very much for the replies!! The advice about looking at smaller systems is very helpful - and that would likely make the install easier and less expensive.
Regarding finding someone out here who can help with this, it seems to be a little more difficult than in other parts of the country. Around here, regular heat pump systems are rare enough - when you start talking geothermal, installer's eyes just glaze over. Most everyone in this area lives on postage-stamp sized lots, so there's not much room to put a ground-loop system. And, there are big restrictions against drilling wells - so getting a licensed driller to put a vertical system in place is going to cost BIG $$$ and BIG paperwork with the County/State. So, the market for these systems hasn't materialized. I'm lucky in that I live way out in the middle of 'nowhere' - a very rural area where you wouldn't believe that Silicon Valley is just over the hill. That comes with its problems, though - we barely have electrical service, no gas service, no water service, and no sewer. So, folks out here have to be pretty self-sufficient.
The solar system I put together is pretty cool - it consists of 6.4kW of panels mounted on a south-facing hillside about 500 feet from my house. I had to get my backhoe down a VERY steep hillside to dig the 7' deep holes for the four pole-mounted arrays, and then mix and pour 8 yards of concrete for the footings by hand (that was a pain). Then, trenching 500' back to the house and laying four strands of 4-0 underground service cable was a bit of a challenge. In the power shed, I have four Outback GVFX3648 inverters (14.4kW of continuous capacity), and I'm using a 48V Solar-One battery bank that has 1690 A-h of capacity (enough to keep the whole property going for a week with minimal sun). To all of that, I added a 1kW hydroelectric generator that runs continuously during the times of year when the trout spawning is over and the eggs have hatched. All in all, the county inspectors were pretty blown away with the system - they'd never seen anything quite so complex, yet so cleanly installed. Best of all, I saved about $50K by doing all the work myself. Next to the backhoe, the solar system has been the best investmetn I've ever made. Power goes out all the time here in the winter, and sometimes for days at a time. The switchover from grid to backup power happens so fast that I don't even notice it - it's not until neighbors start coming over to hang out that I realize we've all lost regular electricity. |
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gregj
 Basic Member
 Posts:326
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| 14 Mar 2008 02:16 PM |
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With two 6x6x35'deep wells of 60 degree water in your mild climate I cannot imagine that you would need any ground loops at all. That's a tremendous source of heat. Draw from that using either slinkies or a plate heat exchanger. |
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Eric D
 Basic Member
 Posts:104
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| 14 Mar 2008 03:13 PM |
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Just playing with some numbers, if the well is 6 x 6 x 35 and full of 60°F water, and if you used it down to 35°F, with no change over of the water, and if you had a heat loss of about 20000 btuh, the well could provide heating for about 4 days. To calculate if there would be enough capacity for heating for an extended number of days you would need to do a flow test to find what amount of water could be drawn from the well for an extended period of time. Just dropping a slinky coil would not tell you if there is enough capacity. |
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| Eric D<br>Southern Michigan |
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LaurelPark
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 14 Mar 2008 07:46 PM |
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Thanks guys - great information here! I have a feeling this is going to turn into one of the forums that I spend a lot of time on.
The wells are around 100' from each side of the house, so at the very least I'd have to trench that much. Being an engineer, I'm prone to designing for worst case scenario, so my thoughts are to do a 'minimum recommended' size trench with slinky coils, and then use the wells as bonus heat sources at the far end of each trench. Since we've had some very weird weather phenomena during the past few years, I'm not going to bet much on the wells being completely full when I need them, but they might help make this system a bit more efficient. |
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Topgas
 New Member
 Posts:63
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| 15 Mar 2008 07:55 AM |
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Not to change the subject but what mfg of PV panels did you use? I'm planning a 5 Kwh system in the future unless I decide to do the geo first. |
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LaurelPark
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 15 Mar 2008 11:08 AM |
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I ended up going with the Sharp ND200U panels - I found a guy on Ebay selling them for a great price. Presently, the best price on panels are the Evergreen "B" panels (slight blemish, but still full warranty and full performance). You can get them in 180W sizes, and they're running around $3.50 a watt (phenomenal price these days). If you go to Ebay and search on Solar, click 'list all' - and then sort by most expensive first, you'll often see them listed as full pallet deals. If you can work a deal where it's delivered from out of state, and they throw in delivery for free, you can't beat it! |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 17 Mar 2008 07:39 PM |
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I'm in the midst of having a 3 ton WaterFurnace Envision with 4 zones installed in a 3000 SF ICF house near Jacksonville FL. The difficulty finding good geo installers (as well as anyone willing to do a halfway diligent room by room load calc) is such that I've gone ahead and taken the Florida Airconditioning contractor's license and my builder and I plan a joint venture installing WaterFurnaces in his future homes. He's been badly burned on prior projects by shoddy geo HVAC system design and installation on prior high-end Energy Star+ homes. I'd like us to pursue LEED.
The foregoing was offered as backround. Here are some thoughts:
1) Redo the load calc - I echo others in thinking your numbers sound high. I sprung for Elitesoft's package ($500) because it is pretty slick and I wanted to be darned sure we got my $20k+ system right. That said, the numbers were quite close to those of Don Sleeth's $50 HVAC-Calc software, available online. I'd definitely spend the $50 if you haven't already. Your R-values sound very high for SF climate, but maybe we don't have the whole picture of old leaky windows, high infiltration, etc.
2) If the load calc comes in lower as some of us here expect, go for a single zoned two speed system unless reworking the ductwork is prohibitive. I happen to like Waterfurnace but WF isn't the only 2 speed system out there. A two speed system and the zone controls should come in cheaper than 2 single units.
3) Good Air Source equipment (again, consider two-speed) would probably be cheaper upfront and maybe in the long run, but I sense a certain inevitability concerning an engineer (I'm one as well) with a trencher...have at it!
4) Attic installs are a bad idea unless you can bring the attic into the insulated building envelope - do so by applying sprayfoam insulation underneath the roof deck and sealing the attic. Rerun the load calc with the ductwork installed in the conditined space and see how much the load drops.
I would not be at all suprised to find that with an airtight insulated attic and decent windows / doors along with your mild climate, a single 2 speed 2.5 ton meeting the load for both sides.
Good luck!
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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