geothermal and high electric bills
Last Post 19 Sep 2008 07:31 PM by Bestexpert. 45 Replies.
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elmorx97User is Offline
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15 Mar 2008 07:49 PM
I have a newly built, 2800' ranch style home in the fingerlakes of NY state.  We have radiant floor heat in concrete and a ground loop geothermal system that was installed.  We had a horrible experience with the construction and design of the home (architectually designed and inspected-what a joke!)  There are problems with the insulation of the house that we have been working to correct.  For instance, the basement was not insulated and now is.  The wall in the laundry room where the pipes were freezing  was opened up, insulated with rigid foam & fiberglass, and sealed.  Exterior electrical outlets have been sealed, the moldy wet plaster around the bedroom window has been removed and insulated, we have caulked and sealed as many air gaps (there were a lot) as we could.  The next major project is to fill in the air space below the flat/sod roof with cellulose, so that that the insulation will have a greater R-value than 19 and insulate the exterior of the block wall that goes through part of the house. However, our electric bill just does not seem to be budging.  In fact, this month the ave. kw/day was 125 compared to 84 last year at this time and it was about 4 degrees warmer on ave.  Our winter electric bill ave. close to $500/month, summer ranges from $25 to $50 (no air conditioning).  We are so frustrated.  The installer has been here a couple of times within several months of it first being installed, but could not find any problems.  In fact he was the one that initially pointed us in the direction of the insulation problem with the house.  My question is, is it possible there could  be a problem with the geothermal unit?  If so, what could it be? I know we haven't finished all that we need to do, but I thought we made a major dent and can't believe our ave. use is more than last year! It seems like other houses with poor insulation are getting better electric bills.  Help! 

Christine
Eric DUser is Offline
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15 Mar 2008 10:41 PM
Christine,

I'm truly sorry to hear of your frustrations over your new home project and the cost of your electric bill. It may take some time and some back and forth communications, but I would like to believe that we can help you figure out what is going on and why your bill is so high. We will need to ask you some question that I hope will get us pointed in the right direction.

Of the 2800 sq ft, is this just the main floor or does this include your basement? Is it a walkout basement? Is the basement part of the radiant floor and is the main floor all radiant? Do you know the make and model of your geothermal unit? Do you know if the geothermal unit has some type of emergency heating backup system? What temperature do you normally keep your house at. What is the source of your hot water for your home?

Ok, not knowing much about your system yet, my gut feeling is that your kwh per day usage is way out of line. Here is an example. I have a open loop (meaning I use my well as the source) water to air geothermal heat pump. My temps are most likely not that much different then yours here in Michigan. I keep our home at 70 to 72 degs F. My kwh per day is 67 for our 2270 sq ft home plus I also heat the 1450 sq ft in my basement for a total of 3720 sq ft. Keep in mind that my kwh is my geothermal and my well pump. Your ground loop should require much less current then my well does.

Please try and reply with what you can answer of the question above and we'll see if we can give you some ideas that might help.

Regards,
Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
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15 Mar 2008 11:27 PM
Usually when people have high energy bills, it is because the back up heat is on all of the time. This would be the first place I would look.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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16 Mar 2008 12:30 AM
And if the backup heat is coming on all the time, you need to find out why. Is it controls? Is it short-looped? Is it a closed loop system?
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
elmorx97User is Offline
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16 Mar 2008 11:35 AM

Thanks.  The only heat is radiant floor w/ geothermal.  The main floor is 2600 sq. ft and has 4 zones set to 64-68, never higher.

The unfinished basement also has radiant heat and the only zone is set to 60.  Since we insulated it (joist bays and interior wall with 2 in. of rigid foam sealed with spray foam) the temp reads 63/64, so I don't think the heat turns on down there.  The basement is a walk-out with about 15' of exposed wall.

The geothermal unit is composed of 2 parts, one is an Econar Geosource 2000 heat pump and the other is an Econar Pump Pak, model #GPP-2s25-1-A. Both the geothermal and radiant floor were installed by Eagle Mtn.

The source of hot water is a propane tank.

I don't think, but I don't know, if there is any type of emergency heating backup.  How do I tell?

Thanks so much for your help.

Christine

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16 Mar 2008 11:37 AM
oops, I forgot.  The basement is 600 sq. ft.
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16 Mar 2008 12:10 PM
It does sound high. I'm located about 30 miles due east of you so I imagine our weather is pretty similar. I averaged about 100kWh/day (60 of which was the Geo) in Feb for a similar sized house, but mine is old and only partially insulated, so I would hope a newer house would do better than that. I assume the installer did a heat loss calc? What was the heat loss on a design day?

Do you have the Geo unit metered seperately? Is it possible there is some unknown energy hog contributing to some of the load?

Is the basement slab insulated? If you have a high water table it will suck the heat out of an uninulated basement floor very quickly.

I also have an Econar hydronic unit and the power consumption is higher than it should be, but only by 10-15%. If I didn't have it instrumented as I do I wouldn't notice it. I think most heat pump problems that would casue an extremely high power consumption would also cause the heat pump to fail in short order. Generally Hydronic systems don't have electric backup, but if an electric water was used as a buffer tank, the elements are sometimes connected for this purpose.

In decending order of likelihood, I'd look at the following:

High heat loss/poor insulation
Electric backup coming on when it shouldn't (assuming you have backup)
Other power hog in the house
Internal problem with Geo

A simple and relatively inexpensive energy logging system like the one at www.ourcoolhouse.com would go a long way toward figuring out where the problem is.

EDIT: I just noticed that Eagle Mtn were your installers - I bought my unit from them (although I designed/installed my system myself) and from my interactions with them they seem very competent. If they've checked it out I'd suspect the geo system even less.
Eric DUser is Offline
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16 Mar 2008 02:18 PM
Hi again Christine, 

Great, more info to work with, and of course, more questions. You mentioned that you set the main floor temperatures “64-68”. Do you use a setback thermostat? The reason for asking this, with radiant floor heating you are doing yourself no favor by changing the temperature up and down. In fact, this can cause a higher use of heat by changing. Set it and leave it.

Does your system include a buffer tank? This is a tank that the geosystem circulates heated water that is then tapped into for each of the individual zones.

When you have a chance, could you include the modal number of your geothermal unit?

Do you know any of the details of your ground loop design besides the pump pack? Are there any temperature probes for the water in and water out temps?

Though I don't believe this to be your problem, it could be adding to it. The propane water heater can be costing more then you might realize. If it is of the type that vents directly outside by way of a pvc tube, these units have an electric blower that dilutes the exhaust gases with air to allow direct venting. The downside, they pump a lot of inside air outside along with a lot of heat from your house.

Regards, and keep the info coming.
Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
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16 Mar 2008 02:50 PM

The geo unit is not metered separately, but they told me that they could install one at extra cost if I wanted.  Do I need to do this?

The basement slab is insulated.

The buffer tank has no electrical connection, so I guess that means we don't have emergency back-up.

I don't have any of the heat loss calc. info.  Any idea where to look?  Should I contact Eagle Mtn.?

Appliances are new and consist of refrigerator, freezer, 2nd freezer in garage, electric oven, dishwasher, front-loader washing machine, propane dryer, propane cooktop, microwave, 1 computer, 1 TV, 1 strand of christmas lights on a timer in the chicken coop. All lights have energy saving bulbs. Only other thing I can think of is a plug in electric warmer in an outdoor water trough for livestock. I can't for the life of me think of any other energy hog that is used in the winter that is not during the summer.

I have been very happy with my interactions with Eagle Mtn. That is why I have a hard time believing it is the geo unit or installation, but with all the effort we have put into additional insulation and air sealing, I was so distressed  when I got our last electric bill and saw that our ave kw usage has gone up to 129 from 85, and it was warmer this year.

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16 Mar 2008 03:20 PM
The 4 zones on the main floor are set to different temperatures.  For example, our bedrooms are at 64 degrees, grandma's room & livingroom at 68 degrees, and mudroom at 65.  We leave these set and for the most part do not adjust them.  The house is fairly comfortable at these temperatures though. So, no setback thermometer.

Previously we had to run an electric heater aimed at a hole in the wall to prevent pipes from freezing in the laundry room (which didn't always work).  But now that we fixed that problem, that energy hog isn't being used and I was hoping for a decrease in electric just from that!

Yes, there is a buffer tank.

Model number of the Econar Heat pump is #GW670-1-T000.

There are temperature probes for the water for in and out temps. However, they appear to be for the radiant floor, not the difference between the "in" and "out" of the ground loops.  The "in" temp reads 89-90. and the "out" temp reads 118-120.

We have 6 loops that are 700ft/loop and each loop trench is 3ft wide by 100ft long and 6 ft deep.  They are minimum 3 ft apart. It is a closed system filled with 50:50 mixture of geothermal fluid and water.  Eagle Mtn. checked and made sure there was no air in the system.

Our propane hot water tank is vented via an electric blower fan through a long PVC pipe to the outside. 

Thanks again for all your help.
Eric DUser is Offline
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16 Mar 2008 03:32 PM
Most of the utility companies have fairly good website these days. Log onto your provider and see if they offer a special rate for geothermal systems. It might very well be worth switching. This is the case in my area. The electric cost is based on hour of day. During the winter months, Sept through May the electric rate is half my regular rate. During the summer months this rate goes up, but still 80% of the regular and drops to half in the evening hours. If your utility company is the same then it is well worth switching.

Your appliances seem to be about average, but one thing you should checkout is the livestock trough heater. Most are design to turn on when they see about 35 degs F. If the thermostat is suck on this could be a huge addition to your electric bill.

Part of the reason for asking for the model number of your geothermal system is to understand the size of your unit. This would help with more suggestions to save you money.

The installer should have provided the heat loss calculations as part of the installation.

Regards,
Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
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16 Mar 2008 04:20 PM

If their electric provider is the same as mine (NYSEG) there are no special rates for geo or electric heat as far as I know. There is a day/night option that might save a bit, but its not a fantastic deal.

The 670 is a pretty big unit for a house that size. Assuming the load is close to its capacity (does it run nearly all the time on the coldest days?), you'd be looking at an annual bill of $1500-2000. But absolute worst case, it shouldn't have averaged more than 100kWh/day for Feb. Are you reading your meter each month, or is it being estimated? In my experience the algorithm NYSEG uses to estimate usage is worthless, so I'd disregard any readings except ones you took or the company actually read.

A seperate meter for the heat pump is purely a matter of personal preference. For me it is a necessity as I am obsessive about tracking energy use. It is certainly useful in troubleshooting and optimizing efficiency. There are pretty good low-cost meters available in the $50-$100 range, and it should be a simple matter for an electrician to install it.

I should have asked what the slab was insulated with - hopefully rigid foam, the bubble/tarp products don't do much good under a slab. You mentioned a lot of problems with insulation and infiltration - have you had an energy audit with an infrared scan, blower door test, etc?

Are the temps you quoted at the heat pump or the buffer tank? a 30deg delta T at the heat pump is high and might indicate a low flow condition. Econar's spec is in the 10-15deg range.

Do you know if the buffer tank is controlled with an outdoor reset control (does the tank temp vary with outdoor temp?) If not, installing one could save you 20-30%. Assuming everything is working as it should and you are just stuck with a poor building envelope this might be the only way to improve performance significantly.

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16 Mar 2008 07:10 PM

Our utility company is NYSEG. When I talked to them before, they did offer day/night metering, but I didn't chose it because I didn't know if our ESCO would give us a different rate.  I see on their website that they offer "time of use" metering if more than 35,000 kw is being consumed in a year.

Our trough heater doesn't have a thermostat, it just stays on all the time.  I'll see if I can look up the brand and find out the estimated kw use.  The first year we were in the house, we didn't have the trough heater and the bill was close to $600/mo. by January.  That was when we kept some of the thermostats at 70 degrees.

I'll try to find heat loss calculations.

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16 Mar 2008 07:48 PM
Most of the readings in the past 6 mos. have been by us or NYSEG.  The previous readings had been a bi-monthly mix of NYSEG reads and estimates.

I think that the slab is insulated with insul-tarp with rigid foam on the edges.  I don't think there is rigid foam under the tarp, but I'll review pictures to see if I can tell.

We did have an energy audit done 2 yrs ago with infrared scan and blower door.  That was very informative.  A major problem highlighted by the energy audit was that the scored block wall that runs through the center of the house (was supposed to be for passive solar gain) was not insulated properly.  Those walls showed black on the scan.  It turns out they were insulated with r-13 fiberglass against block with no vapor barrier.  In addition, the concrete wall has an exposed exterior (no insulation, siding or stucco, etc.) and was never sealed.  Water was coming through the block and soaking through the fiberglass and drywall leading to mold in one room of the house where there was no exterior soffit/overhang.  The laundry room is where another portion of this block wall is and where the pipes were freezing until we took down the drywall and insulated it with rigid foam, sealed with spray foam and fiberglass on top of that.

More than half of the house has a flat/sod roof.  The roof is not venitlated.  It is made up of the following "sandwich":  sod, membrane, 4inches rigid foam, air space, R-19fiberglass, drywall ceiling.  The outside soffits are all water stained and the cedar siding on the house is showing water damage under the soffits that appears to be coming from behind it.  I'm assuming this is condensation from warm air leaking through the ceiling and meeting cold air from outside and condensing?

The audit did show us where the air leaks were and we sealed almost all of those.  There is a fire place and we keep the damper closed when not in use.  There are plenty of recessed lights, but although the audit guy pointed out that they were in general a source of big air leaks, he did not think ours were too bad. We definately do have more work to do on insulation and sealing, but it is so discouraging to see our electric bill seemingly increasing after all we've done.

The temps are at the buffer tank.

I don't think we have an outdoor reset control.  The temps don't seem to vary with the outdoor temp.  How do I tell for sure?

Thanks once again.

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16 Mar 2008 10:41 PM
Hmmm. I'm starting to wonder if the slab is losing a lot of heat to the ground. Insultarp is better than nothing (slightly), but if you have damp soil... You said your basement was 600ft2, Does that mean that there is about 2000ft2 of the main floor that is slab-on-grade? It sounds like you've hit most of the points found on the energy audit, so there aren't many other things it could be. If you can track down a heat loss calc, it would be interesting - if you can't it's not hard to do a rough calc.

There are tons of different ways to set up the controls for the heat pump, so I'm not sure how best to determine what you have. Are there any other controllers near the heat pump? The simplest way might just be to compare your radiant temps on a relatively warm day and a cold day. If the temp is about the same you probably don't have a reset control. For instance, on the coldest days my system runs up to 120F out of the heat pump. Today when it was in the 40s, it was only running at 100-110.

Reset control is important for heat pumps beacuse the efficiency depends so strongly on water temp. For example, for your GW670 unit when the loop water is at 35F, if the radiant water is at 115F, the COP should be about 3.1, or 3.1 units of heat for every unit of electricity. On an warmer day your system should be able to heat the house with 100F water - in this case the COP goes up to 4.0. If you can drop the supply water down to 85F, the COP is nearly 5. If you always force the system to heat the water to the temp needed on the coldest day, you're throwing away a lot of efficiency.

If the 30deg deltaT is at the buffer tank, it is probably the supply/return to the radiant manifolds. You could pick up some efficiency by increasing the flow - if you have 120 in and 90 out, your average water temp is 105. If you tripled the flow you would have a deltaT of 10deg, so to maintain the same average you would have 110 in and 100 out. As above, the efficiency of the geo unit is mch better at 110 than at 120. However, depending on how long your loops are, this could require a monster circulator pump and negate any savings - it really depends on your particular system.
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18 Mar 2008 10:33 AM
Posted By elmorx97 on 03/15/2008 7:49 PM
The house is pictured on www.insitearch.com under the brink rd project, although they certainly would never use us as a reference.

Christine
From what I can tell this is an Architectural firm, am I correct in assuming the actual building was done by someone else? Are the problems you are experiencing more of design issues or from poor construction methods?


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18 Mar 2008 11:42 AM
I have seen that house and I think that the electric bills are actually a result of poor construction methods. Is that a complete block wall that goes through the entire building? That probably brings cold right into the building. Have you had any condensation issues on it? Have you had any other moisture issues in the house. What is the over-all thought of how the building was constructed?
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18 Mar 2008 05:36 PM
The scored block wall goes through the center of the round house, like splitting a pie.  The center portion however, is only from the steel beam and up.  The rest of the block wall is the full north wall of the masterbedroom and the east end, and the full north wall on the west end.

The scored block wall is a major headache.  We had 3 major leaks in the house within a month of moving into the house.  One probably has to due with the stone chimney (it has been covered by black tarp and rope that we haven't dared to take of yet and tackle) and the flashing.  This chimney comes up through the middle of the house and blockwall.  The other leaks involved the wall in the masterbedroom.  After we sealed the concrete (V-seal) it seems to have stopped.  The 3rd area was a tiny attic area over the mudroom.  It was large enough to leave about an inch of water on the floor when it first occurred.  This appeared to be due to a combination of problems: flashing of the metal roof against scored block, condensation due to lack of ventilation, and lack of caulking/sealing around 2 vent pipes that exited out the the west side of the attic space.  That problem has also been fixed.

Condensation is a big issue on all the exterior soffits that are under the flat/sod roof, as they all show large water stains.  The cedar siding under these soffits is also showing condensation (I think that is what it is) by large marks of running water stains that start about a third of the way down from the top.  The cedar siding appears to be getting moldy from behind and coming through to the exterior on the lower 2/3's.  The flat roof system is not ventilated and is not a solid "sandwich" of insulation.  There is a large space between the fiberglass of the interior ceiling that communicates with the exterior, which I have been told makes the rest of the insulation beyond the fiberglass useless.

I think the building was very poorly constructed.  Some of the items are not even NY state code.  For instance, how does one get away with not insulating the basement or the basement from the house?  Untreated lumber was used in various areas of the house, against the block wall and plywood to make the round radius of the sill plates.   The first winter we moved in, I had to roll up towels and place against the baseboards in the kids room because so much air would leak in, it would blow out a candle. I don't know how they got away with it.  We went and got copies of everything in our file from the building inspector and it included the plans, septic and electrical inspection, and Cert. of Occupancy.  No other information, no notes, no signs they had even been there.
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18 Mar 2008 06:32 PM

The construction company was Bristol Builders/DGA.  The problems appear to be due to both.  The architectural firm was using the construction company (with whom they told us they had worked on other projects) to give us an estimate before we went to blueprints.  The estimate was in our contract with the architects.  After giving the construction company the rough details of their plan, we were told that the construction company balked at the complexity and the number of hours involved to estimate.  They would only estimate if we agreed not to pursue bidding the project out.  We balked and the architects told us that using someone else to estimate the project would be very expensive and they had worked with the builder on other projects and thought very highly of him, and in light of the complexities of the project they thought it would be wise to go with him.  They also extolled the virtues of having a builder on board early on to give cost saving ideas and suggestions.

The line is pretty murkey as to who did what, who knew what, and who authorized what.  What was in the plans, materials and specifications is not necessarily what we got.  Apparently there were some "deals" or "conversations" that we were not privey to.  There was substition of materials and deviation from the plans of which we had no knowledge. For example the basement was not insulated, it was called for in the plans and it is NY state. The builder produced a note with what appears to be the architects hand-writing that directs him not to insulate the basement.  The builder claims we ok'd it.  We did not.  Why would we ok that when it would not save us any money and we were trying to build a "green home" spending extra on geothermal and a green roof?  The architect claims it was not him that wrote the note, but as our inspector pointed out, why didn't he note the glaring ommission when he did the final walk through.

Since we knew nothing of construction, we hired the architects for full services.  This meant they were to inspect the project (they said about every 2 wks) and make sure that the plans were followed as specified.  They probably came about 7-8 times over the year it took to build.  Rarely bringing up any issues, and certainly not any major ones.  When the build said 3 months into the project that he would not guarantee the metal 5-V crimp roof and said that we should change the roof material to either asphalt or standing seam metal (at our cost), we asked our architect what we should do.  He only stated that they put that same roof on another house and left it at that.  So, we up-graded to the standing seam at an additional cost of $7500 to us, because we wanted to have it guaranteed!  Funny thing is, that this, or rather the flashing to this, did leak. I have only touched on the surface of some of the problems of the house, as to discuss them all would take to much time and give all a headache.

From my limited knowledge of construction and from the various professionals, builders, and others that have inspected the house, the consesus is that both design and construction are issues.  At this point however, we just want to know what we have to do to fix the house, but it is so difficult because we can't believe the builder or architects say is there, the plans are not reflective of what's really in the house, and we have to rely on pictures taken during the construction process and our own investigations by removing drywall, soffits, etc,  as well as all the kind people who have been trying to help us on this site.

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18 Mar 2008 06:36 PM

Yes, about 2000' of the main floor is slab on grade.  I think that there is only insul-tarp under it, but I need to review construction photographs to be sure.

I'm going to look at the temps closer and see what observations I can come up with.

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