Hi All

I am pretty new at all this, but I have been doing a fair amount of research on line in the past couple of weeks on geothermal sytems.  I am at the point now where I would like to get some actual costs for the systems.  Basically I need to find some reputable installers in the Rhode Island area to contact.  If anyone can recommend some I would appreciate it. 

My house is 2700 Sq. ft.,  about 20 years old and currently heated by oil fired hot water baseboard.  There is no AC currently other than 3 window units.  I am wondering if a retofit to geothermal makes sense econmically.  A lot of the info I find on line is dated and I need to get something current.

I have enjoyed reading the postings here and think I can get some good advice.

Thanks

D Kiernan

If you've done much research you've likely learned that geo is incompatible with hot water baseboards. Hot water baseboards need water at 160-180 Deg F or so and geo can't do that easily or economically.

Therefore to retrofit geo you'd need to install either radiant tubing or a duct system or both. That is likely to be both expensive and disruptive.

There are likely opportunities to improve efficiency and comfort in a 20 year old house w/o changing the heating system - better windows, reduced air infiltration via caulking, sealing, etc. It may make sense to retrofit icynene or polyrethane foam insulation.

A middle of the road option might be to swap out noisy, leaky and unattractive window airconditioners with one or more split ductless heat pumps. With these you can get heating and cooling at greater efficiency, quieter more attractive units wall mounted, freeing up windows for their original purpose of light, ventilation and view.

Minisplits won't be able to provide all heating required in RI, but would be cheaper to operate at temperatures down to an economic balance point between 15-30 degrees or so, depending on the minisplit efficiency, oil price, electricity cost and oil burner efficiency.

If you presently heat domestic water indirectly off the oil burner, consider an electric storage or tankless water heater for use during the summer during which keeping the oil burner warm just for hot water is no loonger economic.

Just some ideas...

I understand that I would need to basically install a whole new system. I paid about $2600 for oil this past winter and most of that was at around $2.75 from late last fall. With prices at about $4.00/gal. now and no end in the price climb in sight I would like to get off the oil buying even if it means a pretty big investment in a new system. I had looked at wood burning gassification boilers with water storage but the cost was quite high to install and the amount of work to keep it running it is pretty high. I also thought with the geothermal system I could gain AC for the summer.

You can go to this site and search for installers in your area

I feel your pain regarding #2 oil prices - I drive Diesels. I live in Florida, but my Mom has a house in Mass heated with oil and she is paying through the nose as well.

If you are up for all the expense and disruption, have at it. It would likely increase your home's value if done right. Insist on a contractor who will perform Manuals J, D and S calculations on your potential system. Those are somewhat time consuming, and a reputable contractor may fear you'll take his / her work and shop it to others. It is not unreasonable to pay up front for that work with the agreement that any such payment would be credited toward the system installation.

Good luck!

Hello dkiernan,

Have you installed geo yet or picked an installer?

I've been researching geothermal for my home as well. I have oil steam heat and tankless water. The boiler needs to updated anyway and I figured to go all the way and pull the trigger on a full retro fit. All the installers I spoke to (meeting one tomorrow) want to drill a well 570ft deep for a 6 ton system on a 2500 sqft home. I'm trying to find a designer/installer that can size up a Earthlinked DX and I think it would save some upfront cost on the drilling. Let me know if you've learned anything.

Thank You!

Hi Jobbz

I talked to one installer for the earthlinked system and we had a pretty good conversation. He told me on the phone that a system for my house would probably be in the 40-50k range, but that he would have to see the job in person to give me an acccurate quote. i called him back a few days later and left a message with the woman in his office to have him come over and give me a quote. He never called me back. I tried him one more time and then gave up on him. I had another installer come to the house three weeks ago from Climatemaster and he told me he would be sending me a great literature packet and a quote on their system. 3 1/2 weeks and two phone calls later still no word. Maybe it's just RI, I don't know.

I am going to a homeowners worshop next weekend at a dealer in NH, Water Energy Distributors. I am hoping to have better luck dealing with them. Time will tell.

If you would, let me know how it goes with the workshop, dkiernan. I want to do my house and a three family house I manage. Maybe we can negotiate three jobs with a good contractor.

I found a few referrals through various manufacturer and industry websites and set up 4 appointments this week with installers that cover RI. The first is tomorrow morning with Joe http://www.dxgeo.com/ a local Earthlinked DX installer. The guy has been responsive getting back to me and had the courtesy to reschedule when he found he couldn't make it today. The red flag is that he's only been carrying the DX for a year with only four installations, so any references would not be through a full seasonal cycle. At least the references would clarify how easy he is to work with.

I like the overall benefits of an open loop vertical well but think the DX system would be more efficient and less costly to install (if its done properly).

Thanks,
[email protected]

Jobbz,

Because the EarthLinked DX system is so simple, it's hard to mess it up. As long as he follows his training, you'll end up another satisfied, happy customer.

I like the fact that we don't have to worry about the loop once its installed, Tuff guy.

To be frank I'm more concerned with the duct installation. The project is a change from old steam radiators and window air conditioners and I don't want to sacrifice quality for price. For air quality we'll probably get filtration, hydration/dehydration. What should I ask about ductwork part of the project? Would there be any difference in how the ducts are done knowing its geothermal from the get go?

Thankyou,

A better duct design system will include a return air duct connection to each bedroom, along with centrally located return air connections. Other than that, I would assume this guy has a longer background with duct than with the EarthLinked product. Would that be right? If so, he should have many references for duct projects he's done.

Retrofits are always tough, though, because there isn't necessarily always enough room for adequate duct. He should definitely prove that he's doing a manual J and D room by room load calculation.

Hi Jobbz

If you are talking to who I think, I believe I spoke with him also. Is he the guy from Little Compton? He seemed alright on the phone, but if it is who I think it is he really has very little experience with any aspect of these systems. I believe he is a real estate agent and subs out all facets of the job.

I decided I need to find someone with a lot of experience with all aspects of these systems. Preferably a lot of experience with the indoor HVAC aspects of the job. Maybe anyone can do these sytems but I would like to have someone who has been in the HVAC business for a long time and will continue to be so he will be able to provide service in the future.

If you do find someone you think is good, please let me know as I would like to talk to them. I will let you know how the worshop goes.

One possibility, that still will work well for you, is that he hires or subs it out to a contractor who does know what he's doing. Just as a general contractor doesn't need to know the ins and outs of the heating system, this guy could pull it all together and set you up with a great system. Not that you shouldn't try and make sure it's done correctly, but it can still work out well.

I know a general contractor that has centered/changed his business into geothermal heat pumps. He does a great job. He just hires HVAC guys to do the HVAC side of things, and facilitates the ground loop installation, and hooks up the heat pump. He has a great business, and has many good references. He doesn't really need to be a "veteran" HVAC guy. Rather, he needs to hire subs that know what they're doing.

The story is that the contractor is a former real estate agent and is now getting into the drilling business.

1) The limited installs he has done were with rented drills and his first rig is being delivered in 3 weeks.
2) He subs the HVAC, Plumbing and electric. The guys was pretty straight forward in saying I could probably get a better price on HVAC if I contracted that myself. 3) He said his first installation was this year and the installations that he has done are not online yet (I guess new constructions) and they are not even running AC or hot water right now.
4) Is it true DX is increasing the cost of their systems by 15% in August due to the cost of copper?
5) He said Rhode Island does not regulate drilling and we don't need a permit to drill. I'm concerned about the drilling being shut-down by an overzealous inspector if there is a complaint from the neighbors for the noise. (note: I'm trying to get this installed in an urban environment. One job is on a 10k lot and the other is on a 4k lot)
6) The contractor said we need 6, 100' bore holes for a six ton system. I thought I read we need 150' per ton; am I mistaken?
7) I liked the guy but there may be too many red flags to risk that big an investment. He said he would refer to the local DX sales rep on these jobs.
8) I have 3 more appointments this week. I think one is for a closed loop and two are for open loops.

Hi Jobbz

Thanks for the info on the earthlinked dealer. I would appreciate it if you can let me know how the rest of your appointments go and if any particular installer strikes you as really qualified. Because of the cost of the retro fit install I need, I really want to be as sure as possible that my system is going to be designed, installed and set up running correctly. If it takes me quite a while to find just the right person, I don't mind as I want to be as comfortable as possible that it will be done right the first time.

Run away! Run away!

If he subs everything out, what value does he add? Who does Manuals J, D, and S on his projects? Beware 'rules of thumb' for borehole number and depths. THose numbers are crucial and must be based on each individual's job conditions.

At the very least talk to the owners of his prior projects.

Cost of copper, steel, everything else... yep it's going up in August.

I'm a sales rep of the EarthLinked DX, too, and work closely with some dealers. If your guy works with his sales rep, Mel Hensch I think, then you shouldn't have any worries.

100' depth is all you need for EarthLinked DX. It exchanges heat differently than a water source loop does (latent exchange instead of sensible exchange). Therefore it needs less loop than water loops.

I agree that you shouldn't rush this kind of decision. Keep informed and weigh your options. If this guy is becoming a driller, good for him. As long as he gets the job done right, there's nothing to worry about. If he's just the driller, and you have a qualified HVAC guy do the inside work correctly, what's the problem? It's ALWAYS a MUST that an accurate load calc. is performed and applied. If this guy won't do that, or make sure that happens, then run away. If he will, you'll be a happy customer.

From the posts from all of you it was clear I needed to ask about doing the calculations. He was dismissive when I asked and after the third attempt he said he would do the Manual J if I gave him the dimensions on the windows, walls and doors. He refered to asking the HVAC guy on the Manual D when they come back for that quote and there was no mention of a Manual S. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure what's involved in the calculations but I felt offended that he tried to brush them off.

Manual S is relatively simple - one matches the load to the equipment AT the projected actual operating conditions.

A '3 ton' unit may in fact provide 36,000 Btuh of cooling, but that's true only if site conditions match ARI rating conditions, which is rare. Here in Florida we have to derate geo systems a bit to allow for 90+ degree entering water. Fortunately manufacturers publish tables of projected capacity under a broad range of site conditions.

The designer also factors in latent and sensible loads - this applies to cooling mode only and considers what portion of the cooling goes to actually reducing air temperature vs condensing water out of the air (dehumidification). A system installed in Tucson will be designed and run quite differently from one in Orlando.

If you get the feeling that your contractor doesn't have a good understanding of these issues or is blowing you off either out of laziness or cluelessness, he / she doesn't deserve your biz.