Does geothermal make sense for seasonal home?
Last Post 18 Jul 2008 07:47 AM by a0128958. 22 Replies.
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dave-nhUser is Offline
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10 Jul 2008 05:45 PM
My family is in the early planning stages of building a new home in the lakes region of NH.  The current plan calls for a small (~1500sqft), 1.5 story "lakehouse" with a full walkout basement (approx. another 500sqft).  This house will be used nearly full time late spring through October, but winter use will consist of a couple full weeks and maybe 5 weekends. 

My questions is this: Does the up-front expense of geothermal make sense when the house will sit unoccupied for most of the winter?  I understand that geothermal is most efficient when left at a constant temp and that heating up a cold house can take a significant amount of time (this wouldn't be an issue-- we'd set the system up to be activated over the internet).  But will it basically take 2-3 times longer to recoup the initial investment due to the fact we won't be using the house very often in the winter?  Would insulating the home extremely well and using a "traditional" heating method make more sense?

I'm not sure if this would be relevant, but we will be drilling a water well.  Not sure if there are any potential savings by having the water and geothermal wells being drilled at the same time.  Horizontal is not an option given the lot dimensions.

Thanks in advance for your input.


TechGromitUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2008 10:37 AM

For A Retrofit, I would say no, but since it's a new installation I would just toss it in anyway. While it's true the payback will be longer the equipment should last 2 to 3 times longer since your not utilizing it 1/2 to 2/3 of the year.  This also gives you the flexability in the future if you decide to make it your year round residence when you retire. That's My opinion anyway.

 

 

tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2008 12:14 PM
It should definitely be done.

You'll still need to keep the home above freezing for water in the home, right? This will require heat. Geothermal is the cheapest way to do that. Yes, the payback will be a little longer, but you'll have the best system to do the job.

A geothermal system will generally turn on the electric supplemental heat to heat a house when the temp. has been turned up significantly (i.e. more than 4 or 5 deg.).

If you have a driller willing to drill both a water well and the geothermal wells while he's there, it should save you money. My experience has shown that water well drillers won't "waste" their time drilling for geothermal.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
dave-nhUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2008 01:06 PM
Great point, TG, about the system lasting longer. I hadn't thought of that. And, presumably, the system will save us more and more per year as the price of other types of heating increase. One of the things I was originally thinking was that the system wouldn't pay for itself by the time it broke down if the break even point was as long as 20 years. Will the underground portion of the system also last longer, or is the breakdown rate independent of amount of use?

I was speaking to another seasonal home owner last night about their heating costs over the winter. They keep their place at 48 degrees f and use it minimally on the weekends for ski trips-- very similar to what we plan on doing. They dropped $2500-3000 on propane last winter. I was shocked by this amount (of course, their house is a little larger than what we're planning).
tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2008 01:53 PM
For the EarthLinked ground loop, it will basically last forever. Part of the installation includes testing the soil's pH. If it's 6.0 or lower, then a CPS (corrosion protection system) is added. This is an impressed current cathodic protection. That means the copper will be bombarded with electrons constantly, replacing those taken by any acid in the soil. Also, this ensures that there is no sacrificial anode that will eventually fail. EarthLinked has given the CPS a 50 year life, at least.

For water source loops, I'm not sure, but I'd imagine they'll last just as long. However, there is more maintenance with a water loop system. Over the entire life of the system, you'll experience, and pay for, more maintenance than you should have to. With water loops, they'll eventually need purged and pressured again, and the pumps will need maintained, too. With the EarthLinked copper refrigerant ground loop, there is NO loop maintenance. It's hands down simpler than a water loop system.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
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11 Jul 2008 02:27 PM
Posted By dave-nh on 07/11/2008 1:06 PM
Will the underground portion of the system also last longer, or is the breakdown rate independent of amount of use?

I was speaking to another seasonal home owner last night about their heating costs over the winter. They keep their place at 48 degrees f and use it minimally on the weekends for ski trips-- very similar to what we plan on doing. They dropped $2500-3000 on propane last winter. I was shocked by this amount (of course, their house is a little larger than what we're planning).
Weather Closed Loop or DX, your looking at at least 50 years. For an open loop source pump, I've heard as little as 10 years, but my parents still on there first pump 25 years later. I guess it depends on the quality of the pump. Also Pumps are fairly inexpensive, figure $1,500 tops for a new pump. 

You have to consider that Propane is the least effecient forms of heating. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Propane is useful for is BBQ grills and Backup generators (because of the limitless shelf life of the propane, Diseal and Gas will only last 2 years tops in a fuel tank with treatment)


  

dave-nhUser is Offline
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11 Jul 2008 03:17 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your input. That's comforting news regarding the system longevity. DX is certainly interesting and something we're considering. Seems to be looked upon quite favorably on this forum.

One thing that is attractive to me about DX is that it appears to be less invasive and damaging to the landscape. Having a minimal impact on the landscape is a high priority for us personally, and is necessary given new NH laws governing watershed bordering land use. Are my impressions regarding the lower impact of DX (compared to open or closed loop) correct?
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11 Jul 2008 03:54 PM
Yes. The EarthLinked DX will take less space on a closed loop. If it's open loop, though, the space taken could maybe be a little bit smaller--possibly. It depends on the "dump" part of the "pump and dump" setup of open loop.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
DcislanderUser is Offline
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13 Jul 2008 09:31 AM
I saw it mentioned here and in other threads that in water based systems the pumps need to be changed (around $1500) and the lines purged and pressurized. How long would a new system last before one needed to make those repair? Also, how would you know when pump stops or a purge/pressure is needed? Will the system simply stop working one day--when it 100 deg, or even worse when it is 20 deg and you pipes burst? Is there routine maintenance to avoid that from happening?

Thanks for any info. Great thread.
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13 Jul 2008 10:58 AM
Glycol feeders, air bleeder valves, etc. can be installed to help against what happens with a water ground loop. However, it merely slows the process. If air gets into the line, the pumps are on the chopping block to get hurt first. Usually because they are the highest point. Those pumps usually will be ruined from air.

As far as routine maintenance, I'm not sure. You're right. The system will simply stop working one day, and you'll need to call a service tech to purge and pressure the lines again. Hopefully the pumps won't be damaged, but that's a risk you're taking with a water loop. I've seen some water source systems that only have needed to be purged after about 12 years, and others that seem to need it every other year.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
cnygeoUser is Offline
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13 Jul 2008 11:49 AM

If a closed loop system is properly designed and doesn't have any leaks, it should be able to go for years with no maintenance other than an occasional check of the pressure gauge. Should a pump have to be changed they run about $200-250 (retail) for the units typically used in residential systems. If it is plumbed properly with isolation valves, changing it should be a 15 minute job and they system might not even need purging. I'm also not sure why bronze pumps aren't standard - they only add a couple of hundred dollars to the cost up front and should last virtually forever. Again, if there are no leaks in the system it shouldn't need to be purged periodically. Some systems are capable of purging small amounts of air on their own anyway after initial setup.

If the antifreeze is glycol based it might benefit from a more frequent check-up to monitor the water chemistry. I'm not that familiar with glycol but I've heard it can be a pain to work with and does need some maintenance. Most hydronics guys avoid it like the plague unless it is absolutely necessary. I've not heard of any problems with methanol-based fluids.

All in all, there is no reason a water loop should present a reliability or maintenance concern. It is a very simple part of the system. Problems that people have experienced here are likely due to poor design and/or installation. I think a lot of Geo installers come from more of a forced air background and are at a disadvantage when it comes to pumps, piping, etc. Some of the "industry standard" design practices for water loops make no sense imo. Look at the hydronics industry - there are hundreds of thousands of radiator, baseboard, and radiant floor systems that circulate water and need no periodic purging or maintenance. It's not that hard!

Yes, a catastrophic failure of the ground loop or pump would casue a sudden shut-down, but you can say that about just about any part of a geo (or any HVAC) system. Compressors, heat exchangers, control boards, blowers, etc can all fail catastrophically and without warning. These are rare, and with good design and installation I think water-based or DX systems are generally as reliable as most HVAC systems.

DX and water based systems each have advantages and disadvantages, but I wouldn't base your decision on water loop maintenance issues. For most people they don't have to be touched for years and years.

Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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13 Jul 2008 12:16 PM
I would agree with cnygeo.

Proper design and installation can not be stressed enough. Every system should have a air eliminator and isolation valves.

Purging the air from the system before using is critical. Often this is not done properly.

If the system is verified to be leak free when installed, leaks should not show up later unless the loop gets damaged.

If there are no leaks and if the air has been purged and if an air eliminator is in place and if isolation valves have been installed, then your pumps will last longer. If you do need to change a pump, it will not be a big problem.

We installed our first geo system in May of 04. We have done about 50 since. We have not had a single problem with any of the loop pumps. We have had to repair several damaged loops and then repurge, but that is all.



Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
DickRussellUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2008 08:57 AM
As far as designing the house to be very well (or even super) insulated, I would do that anyway, before thinking about how to heat it. Gee whiz, a new build, no retrofit issues, and the cost of heating up and going further up? Then there is the issue of how you will use the house later on. The extra cost to do the house envelope right is not all that much.

As to use of GSHP to heat it, I agree with others that you ought to look into it. Being in NH (I'm in Moultonborough, will be doing a superinsulated house soon, hopefully heated with GSHP), and having to drill a well for domestic use anyway, you have a great potential to have the economy of GSHP heating without extra drilling cost for a dedicated well. There are two ongoing threads here(both started by PropaneBeGone) on the subject of the Standing Column Well design for GSHP. Read up on it. As the more recent thread discusses, well water quality can be an issue with the heat exchanger, so you may have to keep your options open.

Tuffluckdriller, care to comment on the possibility of inserting the condenser tube of a DX system right down the well drilled for a SCW system if the water turns out to be unsuitable for direct use in the exchanger? On the business about the backup heat coil coming on when the Tstat setting is boosted 4-5 degrees, can the system be automated to raise it in increments over time, to bring temperature up gradually using only the GSHP?

Anyone: why would GSHP take longer than a conventional heating system to bring a house up to temperature? Is it just that conventional systems tend to be grossly oversized, so that they can pump out the heat faster? In any case, it takes time to heat up the mass of a house (walls, floors, masonry, etc.). Our present cottage, heated with propane/forced hot air, takes a good day in winter when we bring it up from the lowest setting of the Tstat (48 or so) for a weekend. The air temperature comes up fast, of course, but the cold walls cool it off quickly, so the system cycles a lot at first.
tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2008 01:13 PM
DX loops are limited in design to certain depth and length requirements. If those requirements could be met still, it may be a viable option. However, it sounds like an SCW system needs to be far deeper than DX is designed/engineered to go. Typically you don't go deeper than 100' with DX.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
DickRussellUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2008 01:39 PM
What would you expect for capacity for a single DX loop of 100 ft dropped into a drilled water well without freezing the water? I'm guessing that heat transfer ultimately is limited by the surface area between water and rock. For higher capacity DX systems, is it just a matter of using more DX loops in parallel, spread out over more ground?

I'm trying to develop some sense of fallback approach in the event the OP's well (or mine) turns out to produce water unsuitable for use in a SCW design. At first I had thought that DX might do it. Now I have to wonder if the only alternative would be a deeper well and a longer, closed-loop circulation. At the bottom of the list would be a combustion-based heating system.

What about a well deep enough for SCW heat transfer from the rock, with the pump near the bottom, and with pump circulation back to the top of the well, just to turn over the water in the well, and a 100' DX loop at the top part of the well?
dave-nhUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2008 04:46 PM
Hey Dick. Thanks for joining in this discussion. We're in Moultonborough, as well. So it seems or situations are REALLY analogous.

A neighbor recently (within the last 5 years) put in a domestic well. Hopefully we'll be able to glean a little water quality, gpm rate, and depth info from them. SCW sounds like a decent option if the water is worthy.

I'd also be interested in hearing if your suggestion is a viable back-up option. DX in the well seems like it would pose some problems, as you mention, with efficient heat transfer. This would especially be a problem in the winter months (for us) as we wouldn't be pumping domestic water very much, which wouldn't allow for water (and heat) circulation around the well. I'd be interested if your idea of adding another pump to the well well would work. (Hope I'm portraying what you're saying accurately) Interesting discussion.
DickRussellUser is Offline
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14 Jul 2008 05:10 PM

Bear in mind that I have no particular expertise in GSHP. I've just been reading furiously over the last year. The concept is clear, SCW is a proven design, and it seems that only water quality would stand in the way. In trying to envision how a DX tube in the well would work, if a longer bore were required to provide the necessary heat transfer area from the rock, I first thought that since a regular SCW design would have water circulating back to the top of the well even when there was no demand for water in the house, then why not have a DX-in-the-well design where there also is water circulation when the heat pump runs, from far below the bottom of the DX tube to the top of the water column. I don't know how the controls work in a normal SCW installation, how it switches the pump from low-head to higher head when domestic water use requires it. Maybe the circulation diversion could occur within the well, or maybe it has to occur inside the house, with a return line to the well. Perhaps your thought of a second pump loop, entirely within the well bore, a fairly low head pump, would be easier to devise.

Am I getting the impression that there is no "standard" system design, that all sorts of flow and control schemes are cobbed together for a particular installation?

However you wind up doing the heating system, I do urge you to put a lot of effort into designing a very well insulated house. Even if it turns out you can't easily do GSHP, at least the house will be noticably more comfortable and more isothermal and have fewer cold spots, if you don't just build "ordinary."

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15 Jul 2008 12:46 AM
One DX 100' loop would only produce under full load conditions, about 9500 BTUhs. Not near enough to heat most homes. Maybe if the well were large enough to hold 3 loops... but then you'd still have to have enough water flowing from the bottom to the top, as you suggested... However, then you're spending money for pumps, pumping, etc.

I do like your ideas of thinking 'outside the box'. That type of thinking MUST continue in this kind of field. If someone could figure this out, it has a pretty good possibility in lots of areas.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
engineerUser is Offline
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15 Jul 2008 07:30 PM
Clark,

Does that 9500 Btuh limit for a single 100' DX loop apply to a loop immersed in water free to circulate? It has been 22 years since I was responsible for such a calculation in a thermodynamics class but I gotta figure that a loop of copper immersed in a cylinder of water is a whole different animal than one in dirt, no matter how favorable that dirt might be. If that freely circulating water was further modified by a regulated bleed, perhaps whenever below 40 F or above 90 F, all the better.

I would NOT want such a loop in a well used for potable water - any leak would put refrigerant and oil in house's drinking water - not good!
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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15 Jul 2008 07:43 PM
It would depend on the temperature of that water. If the water could be maintained at about 47 deg. F., then it would be able to produce the nominal tonnage amount of 12,000 BTUhs. If higher temp, then it would produce more.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
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