I'm trying to figure out what the best and worse case scenarios are for pricing in Dexter, MI.
I've talked to some guys but unfortunately, as it's a house I'm in the process of purchasing, I can't actually get estimates in.

The place is about 5200 sq. built in 2001. About 1400 of that is on baseboard heat (a two level above the garage), and about 700 is an unheated attic space that's not finished, but is insulated. There's about 3,000 sq ft. between the first and second level that is heated by a 94% efficient propane device. The insulation isn't the greenest, but it's up to standards (R-19 on walls, and R-40 in the ceiling). I even have development plans filed with the county that show the builders did a heat calculation that said 71,910 BTU / Hour to heat the main two floor area at an 80 degree difference (basically -10 outside). That seems to me that I would need at least a 6 ton system then to replace it for just the main part.

The place is on 10.27 acres, so there's plenty of property to do a horizontal loop. There's even a stream and 1/2 acre pond (my understanding is the pond is too small to do a pond loop). I was recently told by someone who might be my new neighbor that the water table is only 6 ft. down.

Anyone have any suggestions for what I might be looking at cost wise best case / worst case scenarios? At a minimum, I'd like to heat the main part of the house geothermal and when I have more money, work on adding vents or something to the baseboard part of the house. At most, I'd like to add the vents and use geothermal for hot water / pre-heat water. I'm sure there's a wide range, but any guesses would be nice.

My guess is $4 to $8 per sq ft of heated space.

Your question is so general and so dependent on so many site-specific variables that we in cyberspace probably aren't going to be of much help. Get good local contractors to give you some options and get back to us with details

Senecarr,
I agree with Dewayne on the $4-$8 guess. Some of the local influences are:
DTE requires a seperate meter/electric service while Consumers Energy does not.
Overhead service to the house maybe upgraded (if needed) for free by the utility company while underground is up to $8/ft.
Water quality; given the pond, don't rule out open loop system to save on install now- closed loop could be added later if desired (I recently heard of an Ann Arbor area open loop heat pump that finally failed after 49 years). Open loop systems are by far the most common in MI but not a "free lunch" (added maintenance-well pump replacement-occasional drain freeze).
If natural gas is available in the area vs propane you might leave the baseboards for some time.
If you haven't closed yet you may be able to finance the system with the home purchase.
Much to consider, but many good contractors in our area.
Good Luck,
Joe

Yeah, I'd most prefer to start getting bids from contractors, but I don't own the house yet. That part of it actually makes me pretty made, I was set to purchase on the 8th, but the bank that owns the property had problems with their paperwork and now it's pushed back to the 18th, which my bank is saying I'll need to pay a good deal to extend my financing.

Adding the financing for the geothermal into the primary mortgage isn't too likely. With the lender tightening going on, the rules are a lot stricter on financing. My hope is to do financing through the dealer for the system or through an energy efficiency mortgage.
That's part of why I'm trying to ball park the numbers. I'd like to have some idea that in the worst case scenario, it's going to be more cost effect to take out the mortgage than it is to run propane heating. In fact, if geothermal is even marginally more initially I'd still be interested because of long term trends and the fact that I'd rather have no gas on my property. One of my wife's dreams is to have a home that doesn't use any kind of gas for the safety increases of it. She's a worrier about that kind of thing.

Thanks to the $4 to $8 per sq feet estimate. That helps some.

Another question, I don't think it's a formal manual J (is that the right letter) calc, but the heat loss for first floor looks kind of weird. It's showing an infiltration of 38391 BTU / hr at 80 degree difference for 26661 cubic ft. I think I calculated that out to a factor of 1 for the air exchanges. Does that seem right for a pre-fab home built in 2001? Or was the person probably over-sizing to cover himself?

Senecarr,
Off the cuff infiltration rings slightly high, but I'll have to open different software to see- forced ventillation for 50 people on a recent 5Ksf building load only about twice that. Perhaps someone could answer that before I get to it.
As far as working the geo into the loan, ditching propane adds at least 10% to home values in our area (have appraisor comp against natural gas if not sure about geo) while simultaneously reducing your debt to income by reducing your utility bills. With the 10% bonus value 15K off a 150K home likely gets you into an open loop something or on your way to a closed.
If you are financing <80% you might be able to do the whole thing on a 2nd which our guys have right now for prime -1 (4%ish). Or you may also be able to arrange a simultaneous 2nd mortgage as long as you are buying the home under appraised value.
Finally you might look into low interest high limit charge cards before you add the new home to your debt load.
Good luck.
J

That's good to know about the financing. Technically, I'm putting 20% down of the purchase price (60,180 of 300,900). The appraisal on the place is 337,000 - the previous owners really dirtied it up. All not bad for 10 acres in Washtenaw county with what assessors call 5200 sq ft of space (I'm hoping to use the appraisal in march to lower the taxes I hope. Place is valued at 570K by the assessor). I feel kind of good about squeezing the foreclosing bank - the mortgage they closed on the property was at 635,000.
A 4% loan? That sounds unbelievable. Depending on the length of term, at that kind of pricing I might be able to afford to do everything regardless of the cost.

Thanks Joe, I'm definately going to see about having you come out to make a bid if Dexter isn't outside your scope. I think I'll pass your company's info on to my insurance agent who lives in Howell and was getting bids for geothermal as well.

Ask the paperwork slouches to make you whole on the cost increase caused by their delay - can't hurt to ask.

An arms length sales price should be avery good tool to beat down the assessment - just be sure to meet any appeal deadlines and procedures. Been there, done that, back in Pennsylvania.

I already asked the bank to compensate for my increased cost to maintain my interest. Their line was, they have another interested party and they are selling for 99,000 less than their asking price. Not much leverage when there's a second offer.
I'm told in MI they won't use the arms length sale when it was a foreclosure because the transactions are not usual. That's why I'm going to take the appraisal in along when I go for assessment. I'm pretty aware of the deadlines, in fact I wish they were sooner. I won't really be able to lower the assessment until March, which is when all MI assessment disputes happen. Really there's going to be an incredible amount of work for a home that's a 2001 between clean up, repair, equipment replacements, and fighting the taxes.

Not sure how much you could put on this "2nd" mortgage, I know we did our refi as an equity line with no primary. You might contact- [email protected] (5th 3rd bank in Hamburg). The homes appraisel and comps would be critical sooner than later. You will actually bring the comp down when you buy.
Be glad to have a look at your home, we have jobs as far south as Toledo. Also have digs coming up in Brighton, Howell and Fowlerville if you want to see an installation.
J

Do you think an 80 degree temperature difference is correct for sizing a furnace that would run in the Dexter, MI area? The heat calc on the main house implies if you used Geo for that whole amount, I'd be looking at a 6 ton system for the main part of the house, without doing hot water nor installing vents and heating the other part of the house. Although, it looks like even if a electric strip heat was a large part of the system it would still cost less to get those degrees than it would propane with the way it's headed.

Not sure any of you guys have seen King of the Hill, but I imagine you're Hank Hills worst nightmare.

Joe,

I am in Grand Blanc and would be interested in seeing an install.

Can you shoot me a note?

ian.upton at gm.com

Thanks,

Ian.

Senecarr, Based on 71K heat load mentioned earlier, a 6 ton unit is probably a bit large (due to diminishing returns/loop cost). Have to load the house to be sure.

One of the information packets I saw around here said that it if you have air conditioning, your ductwork probably won't need re-sizing. Is that correct?

Not necessarily, in other threads we've mentioned that (non-specific) heat-pumps call for 3 times the minimum return air duct in the code book. Add to that the fact that duct work is often poorly sized, and that you'll need more tonnage for heating than cooling.......
I would say if you have air conditioning in an air conditioning dominated climate and the duct work is properly sized then......
that statement might be true.
J

In a heating dominated client it is likely that ductwork for AC (itself often already undersized) is undersized for geothermal heating.