Energy Usage Increased After Install!
Last Post 05 Jan 2009 09:25 PM by geodean. 109 Replies.
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Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 06:53 PM
On July 14, we had a geothermal system installed in our approximately 2100 square-foot house. Our system includes approximately 1500 feet of horizontal ground loop, a Climate Master Tranquility 27--Earthpure unit (3 ton) with a Carrier ComfortZone IIB modulating damper zone system and three zones.  The desuperheater was connected about two weeks later.  We've received our first electricity bill since the install.  Our house is all electric, and our electricity bill went up, not down, with about a week of the bill covering the period after the system was installed.  I thought at first that it was summer and it must have been hotter, but I checked the Cooling Degree Days with the National Weather Service Forecast Office, and the Cooling Degree Days were actually significantly less for the period covered in the two bills.  I thought perhaps the CDD's don't tell it all as the sun swings around this month and sets an an angle that hits the front of the house more, but I checked with our neighbor whose house faces the same direction and her bill went down, indicating that the information from the CDD's might be a reasonably accurate prediction.  I've totalled the CDD's for the period covered so far this month and they are up 11% from this point in the cycle the last bill, but our energy usage is on track to be 24% higher on this billing cycle, much exceeding the increase in CDD's.  Then we thought perhaps because we have zoning now, the system is actually working harder to provide a more even temperature, and the house is truly much more comfortable.  I work from home for about 10 hours a day on a big computer with multiple monitors in an office with two 80-pound dogs at my feet, for example, a west-facing office, and that's a zone all by itself because of the needs of that room.  So, we had been keeping the unzoned previous system set at 79 during the day and 74 at night, but my office certainly wasn't a mere 79 degrees in the summer afternoons even with the custom sun-blocking drapes drawn.  So, we raised the temperatures to 80-81 during the day (depending on the zone) and 81 during the night for my office and 75 for the other two zones, where people are sleeping.  The daily usage did not go down.  Nothing else has changed except the installation of this system.  Oh, and we added LED lights to two more rooms this month, which should have decreased energy usage, too.  Any ideas?  We've called our installer and he's going to have his technical guy come back next week and look at the numbers in the attic, but meanwhile he doesn't seem to have any ideas yet and we've paid about $18,000 for the privilege of paying more for our electrical bill.  After much research, I'm the one who pushed this as our next savings on our usage and am feeling mighty guilty and a bit of a fool.


engineerUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 07:26 PM
Where are you located?

It may not be fair to draw a conclusion based on just a week of billing coverage.

What was the SEER and tonnage of your old system? new system?

Were good load calcs done?

what has been your monthly kwhr use? Can you read an electric meter a couple times per day and start recording the results?

What is the entering water temperature into the heat pump? Leaving water temperature? I can describe a fairly easy and cheap way a homeowner can get ball park temperatures on those lines.

Was the desuperheater plumbed correctly into a preheat tank?

Is much / all of your ductwork in the attic? Has that always been so? How hot is it up there during the day? Was the old system's air handler up in the attic as well? Is the ductwork well sealed and insulated wherever it is outside the conditioned space?

Any major electricity use changes other than the heat pump? You mention a substantial office PC setup - has that been the same?

I don't mean to bombard you with questions, but in order to help we'll need details and data


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 08:13 PM

Thanks for the reply.  Bombard away with questions as I appreciate any information.  I really believe in this technology, believe my installer to be experienced as much as we could assess, and believe that there's likely something fixable here. 

The assumptions weren't made on a single week, as I've also been tracking the CDD's and the usage daily for the first two weeks of this heating cycle, too.  We're located outside Austin, Texas, and that's one thing I wanted to ask.  We were in drought when the ground loop was laid and it has not rained since.  As I type this, we are setting sprinklers up over part of the loop field in the hopes that the drought just kept the loops from ever making good contact with the ground.  It's going to take a while and an awfully guilty use of water in our drought-stricken area to water 1500 feet of loop field, though. 

The SEER and tonnage of the old system were 13 SEER and 5 ton.  The new system is rated at EER 27 and 3 tons, which our installer insisted was enough.  We're not having any difficulties cooling the house, just paying more for it than we were before.  We have approximately 1500 feet of horizontal loop.

Careful load calculations appear to have been done.  We have material from our installer, one who has done around 250 geothermal systems in this part of Texas. Austin is a hot spot for green energy methods.  He appears to have used WrightSoft, calculating window by window, door by door, etc., and using ClimateMaster's GeoDesigner. 

Our monthly kilowatt usage changes of course, with the season, but had been dropping as we replace, room by room, incandescent lights with LED or CFL's, employ the use of a Sun Oven, etc.  Our usage had been tracking steadily lower, but ranged between 1500 down to 1000 over the last few months.  We're on track to exceed 2100 this month, however, higher than we've ever had other than one winter month.  

Yes, I can read our meter several times a day.  I began recording numbers two days ago when we received our electric bill.  

All of our ductwork is in the attic and has always been.  It's of course blazing in an attic with 100-degree weather here, but that's true of any Texas summer, although this one is hotter than normal.  But it was hotter than normal a month ago, and as I noted, the CDD's had actually gone down over the billed period.  Yes, the ductwork is insulated and sealed, and is essentially as it was before the install.  Yes, the old system's air handler was in the attic, too, with the old system's compressor outside, on the west side of the house.

There has been no change in electrical usage, with the only change being that we replaced incandescent lights with LED lights in two more rooms this last month, including my office and the master bedroom.  That should be decreasing, not increasing costs.  There has been no change in work habits or computer setups since the install or in my habits in turning it off when not in use.

You asked about the entering water temperature.  I don't know how to measure it but I just did a put-my-hand-on-the-pipe test and, honestly, that entering pipe doesn't feel a whole lot cooler (insulated, in the garage) than the exiting one.  I could take a warm bath in that water.  I would love information on how to measure it, but then what do we do about it if it's too hot, as I now suspect it is?  Is this fixable without digging up the whole field which ranges across a good portion of our one-acre lot?



engineerUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 09:22 PM
Wow - good information.

To measure entering and leaving water temps (EWT, LWT) get a pair of LCD kitchen thermometers - the kind with a metal probe about 6" long. Check them in a cup of ice water (water with as many cubes as will fit) and then in a saucepan of boiling water - indications should be within a couple degrees of 32 and 212.

Where the loop lines meet the heat pump should be metal fittings. Lay the thermometer so that the sensing part of the probe ~1" from the tip is touching metal on the pipe or fitting entering the heat pump. Wrap the pipe and probe in aluminum foil and secure it with tape or a nylon water tie. Then insulate the foil wrapping with either some pipe insulation or a folded shop rag. Indicated temps should be fairly close to actual.

Soaking the field is a good trick and should help if in fact the field is the problem. It could really help if soil is clay. Clay shrinks when it dries, possibly causing buried tube to lose contact with soil, which would really impede heat transfer.

If possible I'd like you to measure loop temps before and after soaking.

The fact that your installer insisted on going from 5 tons to 3 indicates a good load calc and an installer enlightened enough to know that oversizing is bad.

Can you guesstimate your house load w/o heat pump, in other words, how many kwh is the heat pump using per day?

It is an unfortunate reality that unless you can get the geo unit's EWT down to 95 or so it will be tough for the system to operate much more economically than a good air source unit.

Is this a package (compressor and blower in same box) or split system? If split, it could have been improperly charged with refrigerant by installer.

Is it a 2 speed unit? (I think it is). Do you perceive its different speeds? (more blower noise at return nearest unit)

Does the field consist of a single loop 1500' long or are there multiple parallel paths? If multiple, one or more could be air locked and not flowing water / transferring heat.

Be absolutely certain there are no significant duct air leaks, supply or return, especially return, in that hot hot attic. Guys sweating out an attic install may have missed something in their haste to get out of there.

If tech guy / gal has a clamp ammeter ask him to get current readings of compressor and whole unit, high and low stage.


Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 09:38 PM
One small problem we've seen sometimes, is that the capacitor is not working right for the compressor. The compressor will still run, but it's not running efficiently, or smooth. This causes high bills, and low comfort.

It could be that the loop needs soaked to settle the earth tightly to the loop tubing.

Hopefully we can figure something out for you...


Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 10:07 PM
Thanks so much for the information in your reply.  We'll follow your suggestions for measuring the temperatures and also for asking the tech guy (in this case, a guy) to get current readings of the compressor and whole unit using a clamp ammeter when he arrives next week.  Even without the temperature measurement, I'm fairly sure that the EWT is probably either near or higher than 95 degrees, but I'm wondering why if we've got plenty of loop, other than the possibility of the drought conditions, and wondering why this possibility wasn't discussed with us before install.  We knew and were informed that our savings would be greater in winter than in summer because newer air conditioning systems were more efficient than old ones, but were never told that our costs might instead increase.  We wouldn't have done it in that case because in this part of Texas, we need to cool far more than heat. 

The field consists of multiple parallel paths, so we'll ask about the possibility that one could be air locked.  I assume our installer will know how to check for that.  My husband watched while they purged the air from the system and felt as if they were doing a thorough job as well as he could ascertain without being an installer himself.  He also was up in the attic a lot of the time while the install was being done, but we'll check again for air leaks. 

The system is a package.  It's two stage.  I haven't previously tried to determine whether I could tell when it was in one stage or the other, so far just marveling at how much quieter the whole thing is inside and outside the house.  I'll try to pay attention but I haven't noticed any noise at all so far. 

I'm not sure about guesstimating the load without the heat pump, and in 100-degree weather, I'm not sure I want to turn it off for a day to estimate that.  In our part of Texas, we pretty much go from winter straight into summer, with about two weeks of springtime weather, but our daily usage appears to have gone up about 18 kWh since the changeover from our regular air conditioning system to the geothermal.  Does that make sense, that it might be drawing about that much above and beyond what our other air conditioner was?  If I go back to that month when neither air conditioner nor heater was being used much, our difference for this month will be about 32 kWh per day, and we haven't added anything in the house that would account for the difference other than cooling needs.  Sorry, but despite my three years as a physics major in an earlier life, I'm not sure if those are reasonable numbers that I'm extrapolating from the bills. 

Yes, I agree that the contractor appeared to know his stuff, and I honestly also think he's experienced and trustworthy, but his puzzlement at what might be wrong is a bit disconcerting now.  Before signing, I questioned him quite a bit about the move down to the 3 ton, but I already knew our other must be oversized.  We're in drier drought-like conditions now, but this house has felt too humid since we moved into it, so we felt that the previous air conditioner was oversized and not staying on long enough to lower the humidity.  We're much, much more comfortable now, but this was done as an energy-saving move prior to our adding solar panels and now it may be costing us energy instead, so we're discouraged.  My husband is already retired, and prior to my retirement, we wanted our monthly bills to be as low as possible, but that $18,000 could have been put to other uses.

So, I'm gathering that because we're in a drought, that might be impacting our EWT, and perhaps our unit is just not operating with the efficiency under which it will operate under other conditions, that this might be an aberration due to the drought conditions?  I do understand that we're in a heat wave, too, but thought that I had ruled out the possibility that was causing the so-far greater energy usage by comparing Cooling Degree Days to CDD's previously and also by checking with a neighbor with a house situated like ours and ascertaining that yes, her bill went down when the CDD's did, too, while ours went up. 

We'll check with the other suggestions as soon as possible and my husband is on his way to buy the LCD kitchen thermometers right now.  Thanks so much for your time.  Again, for all those reading this, I'm very happy with the way our house feels and the way the system is operating, even though I'm worried about what might be happening with energy usage.  I believe there's a solution for this, and perhaps the problem stems from the fact that install was done during a drought, a drought which has continued.  Let's hope so.


Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 10:13 PM
Thanks, too, Tuffluckdriller, for your suggestion.  I'll check that out with my installer, too.  Again, I'm not complaining about him, as he seemed knowledgeable and experienced, so I'm hoping that this is something as simple as yours and others' suggestions to soak the field.  I wondered at the time about doing that and had even asked after I'd noticed some suggestions about that when researching geothermal, but our installer said he'd never found that to be necessary. 


engineerUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 10:56 PM
I'm glad you are more comfortable with the new system and that it is quieter. I'll bet you have a loop problem. That you noted a relatively small temperature difference between EWT and LWT just by hand feel suggests to me that the loop flow is OK. This does not rule out an air-locked path or paths within your loop field. Purging is key to that

Since your installer used software to design your loop, at some point he / she selected design parameters. The designer compromises between installation cost and system efficiency - more loop length costs more to put in but results in lower EWT, to a point. Ask your installer what the design EWT is. The design EWT allows one to figure EER (Energy Efficiency Ratio) from tables published by unit manufacturer. Unfortunately EER and SEER aren't directly comparable, although I've heard that SEER tends to be 1/3 higher than EER.

To give you an idea of the importance of reasonable EWT, according to the tables for your unit EER nearly doubles (halving operating cost) with an EWT of 80 vs 110.

Horizontal systems are typically cheaper to install than verticals but cost a bit more to run since the truly stable (cooler in summer, warmer in winter) earth temperatures are only available down deep, below 30'. Going vertical might have cost an extra $5-10k, which would have taken a long time to recover in incremental energy savings.

I'm guessing it'll take a heckuva soaking to get moisture down to the loop tubing. The 1/2" to 1" typical of lawn irrigation probably won't do. A soaking strategy economical of water use will likely depend quite a bit on your soil composition - sand acts completely differently than clay. I'll further guess that frequently light soakings would work best with sand, whereas clay might require infrequent heavy soakings. Or, you may luck out and one good deep soaking will consolidate the soil around the loop tubes and the EWT will forever after behave well.

Do keep us advised. A problem system affords a learning opportunity for all here. I expect a couple other guys (with more practical field experience than I) to chime in in the next day or so. (...Paging Joe and Dewayne...)



Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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08 Aug 2008 11:28 PM

Thanks again for all the information and suggestions. 

I'd hate to label our system a problem system:  I like our installer too much (so far) to do that, but it's not serving our primary purpose just yet, it appears.  Because our primary purpose was to lower monthly usage with a view that would make the eventual purchase of a grid-tied PV system less expensive, a system that's more comfortable and quieter doesn't serve our original purpose if it will indeed use more energy.  I'm still hoping this is just a function of the unusual drought conditions we're having, an off-kilter capacitor as another commentator suggested as a possibility, or perhaps something in the way the two stages are kicking in, and not something in the loop field itself or design.  I'd even feel better if someone told me that the problem is that with the zones evening out the temperature, we're going to have to crank all the temps up to 82 to be equivalent to the average that the old system was probably producing when set at 79 (with thermostat in a hallway with no direct sunlight) and that's why it may be more expensive.  That would be a lifestyle change, in a way, and although it's not one we considered or were told about when the zoning was suggested, we could then feel a little better about it.  However, with that hot EWT (to the hand, at least), I don't think that's all the problem and we're already up to 81 when we previously had the house set at 79.

We would gladly have paid the extra money to have the vertical system if it decreased our energy usage.  The PV system is so expensive that the savings would probably have been more than offset in lower costs for the eventual PV system.  We're not looking at payback necessarily, but rather at how we use less energy and get our monthly bills as low as possible in the future, when energy costs may be higher at the same time our income is decreasing.  However, the accessibility of the flat one-acre and as yet nearly tree-less lot, coupled with the difficulty of getting a well driller out to our away-from-the-city location prompted the installer to suggest the horizontal system.  Our installer does use far more vertical than horizontal loops because much of his work is suburban or city locations, but he has done horizontal loops, of course, so I assume he's knowledgeable about them. 

I'll update when we get temperature measurements.

The paperwork that we have doesn't list the design EWT, but does give the following parameters:  Source Type: Horizontal Closed Loop, Soil Type: Damp Silt/Clay, Pipe Type: 1" IPS PE SDR 11, Pipe Configuration: 2 pipes in trench, Avg. Pipe Depth: 5 feet, Trench Length: 1,485 Feet, Max Source-Cooling: 90 Deg F, Avg.  Source-Cooling: 79 Deg F, Ave Source-Heating: 64 Deg F, Min Source-Heating: 56 Deg F, Deep Earth Temp: 72 Deg F, Surface Swing: 16.0 Deg F, Soil Conductivity: 0.75, Soil Diffusivity: 0.60, Loop Conductivity: 1.89.  Means nothing to me as it's outside my field, but I'm betting that EWT is way higher than 72 or even 88 (72 + 16).  I'm hoping I'm not going to be told that the loops should have been buried deeper. 

Linda



Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2008 12:36 AM
Linda,

Once we know your EWT we will have a much better chance of helping you.  The design numbers you posted above say that the max  cooling EWT should be 90° and the average cooling EWT should be 76°.    What we call EWT they call source -cooling.  These are standard design parameters.

I have attached a table showing soil types.  Pick out the one that you think matches your soil and let us know.

Soaking your loop is quite easy if you use a soaking rod.  Get a 6' piece of  threaded 1/2 " steel pipe.  Put a 90° elbow on one end and then a hose thread adapter.  Then hook your garden hose up and push the other end of the pipe down into the area where your pipe is buried.  This will consolidate the soil around your pipes.  Move the pipe around till you have soaked all of the loops.    Let us know how this affects your loop temp, EWT.

Don't be wishing that you had spent the extra money to go vertical.  I have a horizontal system that works as well as any vertical system.  My loop never goes below 40° nor above 65°.  There are posters on this board who have vertical systems that are right now around 80°.  It all comes back to proper design and installation.



Attachment: SoilTypes.jpg

Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2008 01:09 AM

Dewayne Dean (or Geodean),

Thanks for the suggestion about soaking the field with a soaking rod.  That makes sense and seems much faster and ecologically sound than starting at the surface and trying to soak all the way down.  We'll get measurements on the EWT as soon as possible, but we weren't able to locate an LCD kitchen thermometer of the type Engineer suggested in our small town this evening. 

Our contractor listed our soil type as "Damp Silt/Clay." Although there's nothing damp about the central Texas region right now, my husband mostly concurs about the silt, saying that it's more sandy than clay. 

I hesitated to ask for help because I didn't want to discourage others from geothermal systems, and I'm truly impressed with the quiet and comfort.  I know that our installer spent lots of time with us, and as you can tell from my posts, I ask lots of questions.  He was patient and never sounded a wrong note when I asked questions culled from what I had already learned from reading this forum. 

Our bill wasn't much more, but about 13% more and the geothermal system was hooked up only 1 week of that cycle, and we're currently on target to have a bill 24% more this month.  However, I'm glad I did ask as we'll be armed with lots of information and perhaps have gone a long way toward figuring things out before our installer's tech guy is here next week.  When I originally started, I thought perhaps there's something I'm not understanding despite the calculations with the CDD's, the checking in with neighbors to verify that bills went down in accordance with lower CDD's during the billing period.  I'm impressed with how helpful everyone has been on this board and still confident we'll get this sorted out, especially as these posts have prompted the discovery that the EWT appears to be quite warm, seemingly not that different in temperature from the LWT.  It wasn't that way the first week, I remember.  I'm truly believing now that the unusual drought conditions at and after installation may be the problem or a part of it anyway as the loops are perhaps not making close enough contact to discharge all the heat.

Linda



Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2008 01:16 AM
Posted By geodean on 08/09/2008 12:36 AM
... My loop never goes below 40° nor above 65°.

... It all comes back to proper design and installation.



Must be like 'falling out of bed' to do cooling in Utah, with max EWT of 65°!  Does your GSHP have to do any work at all in the  Summer season to provide cooling?!

Much like my Winter season in Dallas, here, where my lowest EWT of 60° makes it almost effortless to heat my home.

Design and installation being properly done: Amen!

Best regards,

Bill


Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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09 Aug 2008 01:18 AM
Posted By Linda Piazza on 08/09/2008 1:09 AM

I'm truly believing now that the unusual drought conditions at and after installation may be the problem or a part of it anyway as the loops are perhaps not making close enough contact to discharge all the heat.

Linda


This is what I think also.   The EWT will tell the story.

We are glad you came here asking questions. 

Your expectations of lower power bills are valid.

We are very interested in helping you.


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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09 Aug 2008 01:23 AM
Posted By a0128958 on 08/09/2008 1:16 AM


Must be like 'falling out of bed' to do cooling in Utah, with max EWT of 65°!  Does your GSHP have to do any work at all in the  Summer season to provide cooling?!

Much like my Winter season in Dallas, here, where my lowest EWT of 60° makes it almost effortless to heat my home.

Design and installation being properly done: Amen!

Best regards,

Bill

We have hot, dry  summers here in Utah.  Last week were over 100° most of the week.  However we are definitely heating dominated.

Bill,

I ordered me a WEL unit today,  can't wait to get it hooked up.  We are doing 90,000 of slinky pipe on a commercial building and I am going to put a WEL on that loop also.


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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09 Aug 2008 12:21 PM
Posted By geodean on 08/09/2008 1:23 AM

I ordered me a WEL unit today,  can't wait to get it hooked up.  We are doing 90,000 of slinky pipe on a commercial building and I am going to put a WEL on that loop also.


Dewayne, holler if you want any tips, once you get it.  Looking forward to seeing how a commercial geo horizontal loop performs.

BTW, consider burying a couple of sensors in the earth while you have the trench(es) open, so there's no guess work on what the 'deep earth' temp is.  Special sensors that don't corrode are needed - I can point you to a supplier.

We can start a new thread as appropriate so as to not dilute from this interesting challenge/thread from Linda.

Best regards,

Bill


Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
Linda PiazzaUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2008 09:54 PM
To all those who have asked about our EWT, we had to go into Austin to buy even the minimal equipment needed to perform the test Engineer suggested.  As of 8:00 pm this evening, the EWT was 109-110 and the LWT, 116.  This is now our pre-soaking basis point.  Something is obviously wrong with our field, but with almost 1500' of loop, I don't believe we're short-looped!  I'm hoping it's the drought conditions, but perhaps it's one of the other problems suggested? 

Is this harming our new system, to have the EWT so high?

Linda


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09 Aug 2008 10:48 PM
Wow Linda, quite a lot to read.
I didn't see an answer to Engineer's questions about the hot water generator. While I suspect your answer is in the soil compaction (we have a similar problem in winter installations as the frozen soil in MI does not compact well), we see losses caused by hot water generators installed without buffer tanks or throttling valves (particularly when only 1 or 2 persons are in the house). Also leaving water temps should not be measured without first de-activating hot water generator.
The geo software from Climatemaster has been reliable for us but more importantly the experience of your installer sounds like he knows what he's doing.
The 2-stage system will save you most in the winter/spring and fall. I wouldn't expect the numbers you are seeing right now to be indicative of future performance. Use of the soaker and time should change your results.
Let us know what the service tech finds.
Good Luck!
Joe


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09 Aug 2008 11:02 PM
Posted By Linda Piazza on 08/09/2008 9:54 PM
... EWT was 109-110

 

Wow!

We have similary 3 ton/zoned equipment - very similar specs, yours is ClimateMaster, mine is WaterFurnace.

Looking up what 110° EWT would do for me, I see that at 110° my efficiency performance would be cut in half - from 23 to 13 EER.  And that doesn't include pump power - making both numbers a little lower as a result.

So, if your EWT is indeed correct, then my guess is you're running only a little better than an old technology 10 - 12 SEER unit at the moment, which would account for your large KWH consumption.

But, I don't have the knowledge/skills that the experts here do - I look forward to reading their comments.

Meanwhile, I'd be soaking hard the horizontal loop field, while insisting your installer come out and stick in some very accurate instruments to get water flow and water/air deltaT measurements to see what's going on.  Your loop just doesn't look like it's doing its job for some (hopefully solveable) reason.

Best regards,

Bill



Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
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09 Aug 2008 11:09 PM
Joe Ami,

I thought I was going through each question one by one, but I did miss that question about the desuperheater.  Despite what I had read and the questions I asked, our installer did not believe that a preheat tank was necessary.  He doesn't typically use them.  We studied the ClimateMaster brochure and determined that when it showed the hookups, it did not show a preheat tank but a hookup directly to the main hot water tank, so we bowed to the recommendations of our installer with around 250 installations.   Would that be impacting the EWT, though, at the approximated 109-110 degrees, according to the test that Engineer suggested?  Even if it was elevating the LWT, shouldn't the ground still be cooling more than it is?

I'm sorry about the long-winded posts, but I'm trying to provide the information asked, affirm that I'm not trying to cast blame on our installer and have hopes of this being resolved, and probably accomplish a few too many goals in each post.


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09 Aug 2008 11:18 PM
Bill, thanks for your comments, too.  We're soaking as I type, although we'll be shutting it off in a little while for the night. I'm impressed with the helpfulness of all the people writing in.  I hope that we'll be able to provide helpful suggestions about how our problem was solved soon to others who might have questions.  Maybe I should look up how to do a rain dance.


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