Linda, just curious what is happening on your project

Geodean,

Thanks for asking. We've been a little frustrated. Our installer concluded through various tests and consultations that the ground loop should be abandoned and, after consultation with others with wells in our general area, concluded that a vertical system would work. There had been some concern that if the temperatures were running hotter than the software's predictions for the horizontal loop, that they would for a vertical system, too, but those were apparently satisfied. However, two hurricanes that forced the evacuation of the area where the driller lives and operates his business have delayed the drilling of the vertical loops. They were scheduled for Saturday, yesterday, but the driller is running behind on a job in Abilene and will now not be here until late this week or early next week. Meanwhile, despite cooler temperatures, our electricity bills are still running higher than they were up until July when the system was installed, when we had already been having record high temperatures. We've tried to exercise patience and understanding, with our own relatives evacuating, too, due to the hurricanes, but we're now almost three months since the system was installed and about two since we first detected a problem in the form of increased electrical bills. Our concern is that, although our part of Texas still has warm temperatures this time of year (89, 91, 86, and 86 for highs the next few days), they're obviously nothing like mid-summer temperatures when highs are in the mid to high 90's and, this summer, frequently over 100. The nights are much cooler, too, than in midsummer periods when night-time temperatures are still in the 70's. We won't have a good test of whether, after a week or two of operating in high summer heat, the ground loops are functioning well. We are worried that we'll move into next summer only to find out that the same difficulties reoccur.

Linda, sorry to hear about the ongoing problems. What kind of tests did they do to determine that the ground loop needs to be abandoned? I have never heard of this happening.

In fact I find it really hard to believe. Especially since the installer admits he hasn't done many horizontal loops. Any idea if he has done any besides yours?

Can you sample the ground temp at 5 foot depth? Dig a hole and insert a probe thermometer ?

Are they expecting you to pay for the new loop?

Sorry for all of the questions, I really want to help you.

As we said before, we are glad you are asking questions and have been grateful for the help that you in particular as well as others have provided. A probe was put into the ground and tested at various times. My husband purchased an ohmmeter so we could verify the measurements being taken, and, in all tests--day, night, cloudy day, sunny day--over a period of time, the temperatures were running well over expectations. My husband isn't here so I can verify, but if memory serves me right, the temperatures were running about 85 degrees as per calculations after measurements were taken from the ohmmeter. As a quick and dirty test, we were also asked to just run our faucet inside the house, and the temperatures were running about the same. This was far above the design parameters, obviously. Our installer consulted with the loop field specialist with . . . I guess it would have been ClimateMaster, as he used their GeoDesign program . . . before making the determination to drill vertical wells. We have not been asked to pay another dime. I guess he could surprise us by showing up and drilling the wells and holding out his hand, but I don't think he'd risk not getting paid by not asking for extra money up front. His attitude has been that this is just one of those things, a learning experience for him. He has done horizontal loops before, but only a few out of the 250+ systems he says he's installed. Notably, though, one of those few has been at his brother's place, which he obviously keeps up with quite often, and it's apparently working beautifully. We could of course be being hookwinked, but we did quite a bit of research, checking him out in every way we knew to do before starting the project. Should I say now that my husband is also a corporate attorney, so he's not usually hookwinked easily? So, we're puzzled and getting a bit distraught, beginning to talk to each other about deadlines after which we'll have to consider our next actions, but so far, he's appeared to be an upfront guy.  Just a slow guy.   

Now I remember. The tap water temp is really telling. Let's hope things get remedied soon. I am really glad to hear that your husband will be able to make sure you are treated fairly.

I wonder if that 85 deg at 6' is typical of Austin after a long summer of 100+ days, or that's an effect of the Piazza's system baking that ground.

At any rate, that the contractor seems willing to eat a vertical retrofit is amazing and praiseworthy.

DeWayne, do you suppose he could hybrid the existing horizonal field with a reduced vertical field - send the leaving water first through the horizontal and then the verticals for further cooling - seems a shame to entirely abandon an existing field, especially after all the compaction work.

I also will be very impressed if the contractor steps up and corrects this.

I doubt that their water line runs through the loop field.

I have only  heard rumors of hybrid horizontal and vertical loops.   Not sure how to do the design calcs.

If the soil temp really is 85°,  there isn't much to offer  in the way of cooling.

I would be hesitant to install anything less than a full sized vertical system.  Getting burned once is bad enough,  twice would be unbearable.

Interesting idea though.

I've a local guru who has mixed vert's and horizontals. Most often in a repair application like Linda's. Once again it's all about footprint. I'm actually a little suprised at this guys willingness to abandon the loops he has instead of augmenting them if need be. I'm not 100% certain that compaction is final. Frankly it sounds like a bombed and frazzled guy throwing money at it to fix the problem.
Believe it or not Linda that hurricane put us behind as well in MI.
J

I received notification of a new post from a SW Austin homeowner, but I don't see it here. So, L.L., if you're reading, your supposition about the identity of the contractor is correct. As far as whether we'd use him again, that will of course depend on how the problem is sorted through, but I can tell you that so far, we have experienced him to be a competent and resourceful person who seems to be a man of his word. We had no problems with the crew working here, even though I work from home in an intense job. We have a problem now, but I don't entirely attribute that to the contractor, although perhaps some of those simple tests could have been performed before the horizontal loop was installed and I think some mistakes were probably made due to inexperience working with horizontal loops. I don't think there should be a problem with the vertical loop. Even though there's a problem, he has not abandoned us and appears ready, at least of this writing, to absorb the costs himself. We're not happy with the schedule of this as it's taking far longer than we would like to resolve, but that's not totally in his control, either, as he certainly didn't send two hurricanes to the county in which his driller lives and he can't wrangle him physically over here to Austin. So, we're frustrated now and unhappy that we won't be able to test it out during the primary cooling system and will have to wait until next summer to see if it performs better than it did this summer, but so far at least, still have faith in this contractor. He made some changes inside the house with the ductwork that have made the house much more comfortable and evenly cooled than had been true previously. While our opinion could change, that's the opinion so far.

Linda, the post from whirlwind is the other from Austin

Linda do you know what are your return temps are now? I just wonder how the system will run this fall/winter/spring. Hopefully it will become more economical with the field able to handle the less intense season and maybe winter (do you use much heat?) will be great with a warmer field, although maybe he will drill right before your heating season.

No, unfortunately, I have not checked the return temperatures in a while. Once the decision was made to replace the field, it just seemed a useless endeavor and a reminder, too, that we wanted to avoid. We have also gone through several weeks of dodging hurricanes when we thought that the drilling for the vertical wells was imminent. We currently are being told it will happen the end of this week or the beginning of next.

As to winter, winters can vary wildly in this part of Texas. We tend to go straight from summer weather to a couple of weeks of fall-like weather, straight into winter, and then straight into summer again with that two-week interval of mild weather. Our winters are of course mild compared to other parts of the country but certainly cold enough that we need heating. The average minimum temperate in January, for example, was 34.2 and we had 14 days that month with a minimum less than 32 degrees. Of course by March 14 of this year, we had our first 90+ day, which followed closely on the heels of March 9, with a record low for that time of year of 29 degrees.

This is an incredibly informed thread about geo!!

For all of pros that install geo for horizontal fields.......Do any of you folks drill down (2" hole) 5ft...6ft..etc.. or whatever the computer model gives info for that area of the country, and install a temp gauge to see what the 'real' temp is?? This seems like a very cheap and efficient way of determining(foolproof) way of seeing what 'realworld' temps are in that area at that depth compared to the computer model?
IMO.....It seems like if ya don't get the desired temp at 5' but you go another 2 feet and get the desired temp....it would save alot of headaches for everyone......plus time...money....etc....

Actually, Robin, most of the horizontal diggers that I know assess the soil while they dig. Any digger will tell you that just because you have 1 kind of soil where you test doesn't mean it will be uniform throughout 100's of trench feet. The solution is extra foot print (more tube in the ground). Saturday's dig is probably damp sand and gravel but could be dry sand so we're taking another slinky along just in case. Digging to 7' is not an option as risk of cave in with injury are greater causing OSHA wider width/shoring requirements, geometricly increasing excavation cost through out.
Experienced diggers are part of the equation when shopping for geo. If company subs it out you may want to inquire as to digger's qualifications as well.
J

Joe, I agree digging a deeper trench is dangerous but I thought these ditches for the hor. were only 8-10 inches in width?? Why/How would anyone go down inside the trench??

We run slinkies or 6 pipe trenches up to 5'wide/6'deep. 10" trenches impractical around here.
J

Our trench was at least 8 feet wide and 10 feet deep or so they said, I know when I walked in it (probably shouldn't have done that) it was quite a bit deeper then my head height so 10 feet sounds about right. They ran 4 tubes out and turned around in an area about 12x12 at the end and 4 back all a foot apart from one another with the "out" being on the right on the way out.

Slinky trenches go 42" wide here, 6 pipe up to five. You may certainly go deeper if you are 8' wide but that's the whole point, cheapest trenches are 1 or so scoops wide not 2 or 3. 10 inch width also impractical as most of our soil is damp sand and gravel (back fills too easily on it's own).
J

By way of update. Our contractor determined that he would abandon the horizontal field and drill vertical wells. Our contrator has assumed responsibility for correcting the situation. The drillers are here now finishing the third well. First well was 300’. Second at 290’ due to rock. Third well in progress. Wells are being located in a straight line approximately 12’to 15’ apart. So far soil conditions are sand, gravel deposits and rock with some clay. Have not hit any ground water. Any thoughts or comments. Temperatures have drop here in Bastrop since we started this in July. 100+ has dropped to 80's and 90's with night temps reaching high 50's to low 70's. I assume that this is having some effect on ground temps. Also means that we are using a/c less and thereby putting less heat back into ground. I did take some incoming water readings yesterday and had readings of 87-89. Not sure what we should expect once the wells are completed. But will take readings and let you know. Driller told me that this is the second horizontal field in the Austin area that he has been asked to fix because of temperature issues. Driller seems to believe that three wells in this area will work.

This sounds like great news.  Remind how many tons your heat pump is.