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paulm
 New Member
 Posts:17
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| 16 Aug 2008 01:03 PM |
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"What is the temp of the water you're using to hydro-compact?"
It could be that it's pretty warm (summer in Texas, water lines not buried very deeply). Here in Kansas, I can just about take a shower straight out of the cold tap in July and August. It's probably even worse in Texas.
Paul |
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George Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 17 Aug 2008 10:02 PM |
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We received a hard rain yesterday and more rain predicted for tomorrow and Tuesday. Will continue working on trenches after we see what help the rain gives as to compaction and cooling the soil. |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 18 Aug 2008 12:30 AM |
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Give us an update on your EWT after that rain sinks in |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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George Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 18 Aug 2008 08:34 AM |
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Absolutely. I have stopped any work I was doing with the water hose to compact the trenches pending the rain we are getting. Not seeing any compaction as result of rain but ground temps must be improving. Will resume compaction using water hose after rains stop and surface dries enough to walk on. We are continuing to monitor the water temps and will post results. |
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rodlpete
 New Member
 Posts:1
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| 23 Aug 2008 08:50 AM |
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hi although I am not an engineer per say, but quite interested in geo systems. what got me about your installation is its new and would you need time to do better estimates of power usage. for example,being so new, did you know that all the work done to install a system requires power tools! and were they plugged in to your house??? |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 25 Aug 2008 12:22 AM |
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That's a great point Rod that I think we touched on, but even the Piazzo's have agreed that their case study is short term at this point. Linda and George have been very careful to try to compare apples to apples (citing unusually hot weather and polling neighbors on usage). The interesting thing is that electricity for water pumping (if well) or water bill will be increased to speed compaction. It is unfortunate that they've experienced this, but long term, geo will kick the a** of their conventional system. The other unfortunate point is that this would have been a non-issue if they went with the DX guy (although as his alpha project other misfortunes may have cropped up) as a soaker hose is biblical in the installation instructions. There may be a lesson in that for those of us who do water loop installs. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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George Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 25 Aug 2008 09:53 AM |
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We agree that one should not jump to conclusions too early. When Linda and I saw the first usage bill, we considered all of the possibilities including the electrical usage related to installation. We considered the initial readings and subsequent daily readings to be an indication that something wasn’t right but wasn’t certain. Following the great advice received in this forum, we began monitoring incoming water temps. We began a daily log of kilowatt usage. We watched everything used in the house to make sure that we had not increased use in another area. Various individuals on this site have requested data and information. Their comments and recommendations have been greatly appreciated. I began using some of the watering techniques recommended to achieve some compaction. (We do not have a well, so electrical pump usage is not a factor.) To date incoming water temps do not meet specs. Based on information received from this forum, the system cannot achieve the desired efficiency under the present incoming water temps. What I have learned is that there is little or no compaction. Once you punch into the trenches at almost any point (using a pipe attached to a water hose), there are large voids where no soil is compacted around the pipes. I have attained some compaction but have a long way to go. Where I have worked on the trenches, there is now anywhere from six inches to two feet drop in the trench level. I have not replaced or added any soil to the trenches where I have been working. I am still trying to get the contractor back out here and want him to see this for himself. We have seen some drop in the incoming temps. We were getting readings 110. Now seeing 95-100. There have also been some weather changes including the first rains in months. Until the trenches are properly compacted and additional soil added, true results are uncertain. Changes in weather will also be a factor. I intend to post all of our readings and compaction efforts. There has been some excellent advice given to us. I think the fix is forthcoming but will take time. |
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George Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 25 Aug 2008 11:16 AM |
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Just completed lengthy discussion with our installer. He, in turn, has been in contact with the manufacturer. He will install a sensor five feet underground to see what the sub-ground temps actually read. If the desired sub-ground temp can be achieved according to what was projected, then we know to continue with compaction efforts. Should have that data by this weekend. |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 26 Aug 2008 07:48 PM |
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Position of that sensor relative to loop pipe is critical to evaluating its info. I'm skeptical of it providing useful info. As long as EWT exceeds design temp, compaction or soaking is needed. That or something fundamental was missed during design - soil type or load (length of pipe needed). I'm skeptical that the reading from a single sensor placed as described will inform or direct continued mitigation work.
If the sensor indicates high, then it is likely close to a warm loop pipe. If it reads low, then it is in soil not thermally influenced by loop pipe. Neither scenario seems to me to dictate the path forward.
If soaking / natural rainfall / surface compaction doesn't get EWT down to design. then either of two much more expensive mitigation options spring to mind:
1) Partial excavation and then soaking / recompaction in sequential lifts
2) addition of more loop capacity - more horizontal trenching and piping or addition of supplemental vertical boreholes.
I don't mean to sound harsh or dictatorial - that the contractor is engaged and on scene is more than can be said for the rest of us here.
I just took a quick look at NWS Austin and see that cooling load has moderated slightly compared with late July and early August. That is no doubt somewhat lowering EWT, but not by the amount you report
That you have had so much subsidence (6"-24") in surface soil level following your compaction effort indicates that every inch of that pipe field needs that treatment - likely major voids around pipes. I'd worry less about adding soil to trench to replace subsidence, though if it can be done by regrading I'd consider that when the whole field has been compacted. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Palace Geothermal
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1609
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| 27 Aug 2008 05:27 PM |
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George, How much longer will you need to be cooling your house?
Unless the cooling season is about over for you, I would be out there soaking those trenches!! Just stick the pipe in the trench and let it run. You don't have to work it or watch it. Just check on it every hour or so and move it down the trench. Your money is being wasted while the installer is doing nothing to solve the problem, or so it seems to us observers.
If I ( as an installer) walked onto your job and saw that the trenches had settled 1-2' where you had been soaking them, I would grab a hose and help you soak. There is simply no way that loose, uncompacted soil can much transfer heat .
I agree with engineer as to there being little value in measuring the ground temp unless there is the possibility that there is some kind of geothermal hot spot that is giving you abnormal ground temps. |
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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George Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:14
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| 27 Aug 2008 06:53 PM |
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Our contractor was out of town for several weeks while we have been trying to find a solution. Now that he is back in town, he has had several conversations apparently with the manufacturer and some of their field loop design people. One of his concerns is that his computer model showed that for this area we should achieve a certain sub-ground temp. His thoughts are that if placement of a sensor indicates that the needed ground temp can be obtained, then compaction is the process. If he feels that the ground temp doesn't conform to the computer model, then he wants to redo the loop field and go to vertical lines. He agrees that the desired temps are not being obtained and that he needs to find the fix. If compaction is the method he chooses, I think we should follow the advice given here including uncovering the lines putting the soil back in layers and watering each layer to achieve compaction. I have discussed with our installer many of the comments and recommendations received and will continue to take seriously all of the advice given. Since this is his problem to fix, I need to allow him to test and come up with a solution. However, this time I have the benefit of the advice being given which better allows me to ask the appropiate questions. Will keep everyone informed. Thanks. |
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Palace Geothermal
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1609
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| 27 Aug 2008 07:14 PM |
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Posted By George Piazza on 08/27/2008 6:53 PM I think we should follow the advice given here including uncovering the lines putting the soil back in layers and watering each layer to achieve compaction. ........ Since this is his problem to fix, I need to allow him to test and come up with a solution.
George, I understand your predicament. You paid the contractor to do the job, he should fix it. Sorry if I came across too strong. Maybe there is something missing in my view of your situation as all I know is what I have read here, but to me the answer is obvious. The soil needs to be consolidated around the pipes. If the contractor is willing to install vertical loops at his expense, then by all means let him. You should not be expected to pay anything. We have installed 30+ horizontal loops. I have been excavating and backfilling for close to 30 years. Believe me, there is nothing to be gained by uncovering the lines, putting the soil back in layers and watering each layer to achieve compaction.
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Linda Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:21
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| 27 Aug 2008 07:34 PM |
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Geodean,
Neither of us believes that you've come on too strong! We are so grateful for the advice and help that we've received here from you and others. When our contractor was out of town and sending his tech guy, we were able to follow the advice that you offered and quickly identify the problem: the compaction issue. We know absolutely, through providing that information and following through on your suggestions, that compaction is an issue. Our contractor is just worried that it's not the only issue, so we're allowing him, now that he's back in town, to sort this out. We had received some rain and had stopped soaking, allowing the water to percolate through the soil and perhaps do some compaction while we were out of town for a few days, prior to the contractor coming out tomorrow. We'll let you know what happens. |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 27 Aug 2008 10:09 PM |
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I cheerfully defer to Dewayne's experience with horizontal fields. I earlier suggested partial excavation and recompaction only if the water injection method failed, and by your recent update, EWT dropped 10-15 degrees following your water injection work, so that seems to be effective.
There is a remote, really remote possibility that your house is over some sort of natural geo hot spot rendering normal ground loop design ineffective. A temp sensor placed underground might show that, and it might somehow exempt your contractor (or make him feel exempt) from meeting the design EWT spec. For that measurement and argument to hold water multiple measurements would have to be taken well away from the area influenced by your ground loop's long hot summer of heat rejection.
It wouldn't do for your installer to jam a sensor into the ground near / over your loop, read a 90+ temperature and claim that your ground is unnaturally hot, exempting him from performance...
I agree with Dewayne's earlier thought that your contractor ought to send a helper over to run that water injection pipe throughout your loop field.
Is the injection water use raising your water bill? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Brock
 Advanced Member
 Posts:599

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| 28 Aug 2008 11:56 AM |
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I keep coming back to the possibility of the one or more of the lines being air locked. Would it hurt to try to flush air out the lines again or re-prime them or what ever that called? Is it common or does it ever happen that one of the lines gets pinched during backfilling and causes that loop to become ineffective or greatly reduced? Couldn't that explain this as well? |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 08 Sep 2008 05:21 PM |
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Linda,
Did you get your system fixed? I'm aware of problem installers in Texas and can turn you on to a very reputable geothermal guy to help you debug your install if you still need help. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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Linda Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:21
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| 08 Sep 2008 06:12 PM |
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Our system has not yet been fixed, but the geothermal installer/contractor will be doing so, hopefully within a week or two. His measurements convinced him that we would not achieve optimal design parameters on the loop field, no matter how much compaction we achieved. I know there was some controversy about whether such measurements would provide accurate information, but they were returning temperatures of 85-89 at five feet over a several day period of time, even when outside temperatures dipped. A quick-and-easy test of running water from our tap returned the same temperatures. Our contractor, in consultation with the Loop Field specialist with ClimateMaster has determined that there is something aberrant about our underground temperatures, and our contractor has made the decision to drill vertical wells and abandon the loop field, as he believes that we can never achieve the desired effect. He's contacting local officials to find out about wells in the area to collect data on their temperatures, but none of the houses in our immediate area have wells to test. So far, he's taken responsibility for solving the problem. Getting those wells drilled has been delayed, however. Hurricane Gustav, although not ultimately impacting Jefferson County, did result in a mandatory evacuation of that county where his well driller lives and stores his equipment. That slowed down previously scheduled jobs for his driller and, of course, Ike may now force another mandatory evacuation, depending on the final trajectory. We're waiting on a final date and a final proposal. |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 08 Sep 2008 06:45 PM |
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I discussed going horizontal with my geothermal installer and he could not get comfortable with it. His concern was heat saturation of the loop field so I went vertical and the performance has been stunning. Hope you are able to get it fixed to your satisfaction and it works well for you.
Feel free to touch base if he continues to struggle resolving the performance issues. My installer does a substantial amount of follow up on improper geothermal installs around Texas. He's working on a 14,000 SF fix in Dallas right now. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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Linda Piazza
 New Member
 Posts:21
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| 08 Sep 2008 07:11 PM |
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Thanks, 183eej. We're hoping to report something similar. So far, although this result has not been what we expected with regard to the energy savings, costing us more energy usage, I'm impressed with how much more comfortable our house is, even though we've actually had to go up on the temperature settings to at least partially offset the higher energy usage. So far, too, our installer, although working more slowly than we would prefer, has been great about assuming responsibility. We'll see if that continues. If not, I may be taking you up on your suggestion to provide other names. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 08 Sep 2008 10:00 PM |
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Posted By 183eej on 09/08/2008 6:45 PM ... Feel free to touch base if he continues to struggle resolving the performance issues. My installer does a substantial amount of follow up on improper geothermal installs around Texas. He's working on a 14,000 SF fix in Dallas right now. Who is your installer? If you would be so kind to include contact information, that would be much appreciated! Many thanks! Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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