High Electric Bills
Last Post 08 Jan 2009 08:01 PM by geo fan. 15 Replies.
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triciadnhUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 12:20 PM
I recently installed a 5-ton geothermal heat pump in Gilmanton NH in a 2700 sqaure foot house.  My first electric bill was 400% higher than normal.  We shut off the KW strip, but that is not helping the electric usage.  The unit runs almost constantly -- in a 60 minute period it is off less than 15 minutes.

We recently had a power outage and power was down for three days.  However, it has been weeks since power has been restored and the meter is still spinning like a top.  As I said we shut off the back-up KW strip.  Could something in the unit have been damaged when the power was restored?

Help!
geo fanUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 12:37 PM

The capacitor could be damaged with a surge

an electrical meter that mesures micro farads can  test this
what was the actual kwh consumption minus an average months kwh

triciadnhUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 12:40 PM
My average consumption before we installed the geothermal was about 400-500 KWH.  This is a second home and we aren't there much in the winter.

The kwh jumped to almost 2700 after we installed the system (which was about 2 weeks prior to the outage), and thus far in this period it looks like we may use over 4,000 kwh unless the issue is discovered.
joedefuscoUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 01:10 PM
Many many factors here, before getting into system installation and design. Lets start here-
If you are spending .16/Kwh then it cost you about $352.00 to heat last month, what type of system (oil,gas) did you remove and how much did you spend /mo. to heat with the old system?
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07 Jan 2009 01:25 PM
Please I protest!

The answer to a geothermal querry should never be, it is cheaper than what you had before.

Lets address the problem with facts.  what size units do you have, loop field ect. and answer the question.
Eric
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
geo fanUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 01:35 PM

Agreed , 2700 even as a rough estimate is concerning

What type of system ie vertical closed

Is the system drawing normall amprage

Whats the air temp out of the vent and the room temp

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07 Jan 2009 01:55 PM
Notice "lets START here", I was trying to start a dialog with a fact.
Then move on to heat loss, equipment sizing and manufacturer, EWT,LWT,Amp draw, delta T across the coil, vert or horz field etc.
The costs before and after are indeed facts and in many cases it is the first thing a non-technical homeowner may know right off the top of thier head.- not meaning to offend anyone, and in no way meaning to solve the problem(s) by saying "see it's cheaper"
geo fanUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 02:03 PM
Thats fair
engineerUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 09:54 PM
My understanding is that if the capacitor is damaged the unit won't start - bad cap shouldn't change operating cost.

The electric bill will certainly rise in winter since electricity has become the primary heating "fuel"

Off 15 minutes and on 45 minutes is not unreasonable for a geo system in a cold climate in January.

All that said we absolutely need the loop and duct details in order to assess possible problems.

Any ice on water lines?
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
geo fanUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 10:15 PM

Caps are rated to a certin charge UF

If there is a bad cell in the cap the unit will not start , they are easy to spot. bubble top

There is a plus minus range of 4-5% between rating and actual charge

In short a 45uF cap , may have a charge of 40.5 ( barely exceptable )

If the charge has droped to lets say 30-40 the unit will still start

but it will draw more amps at start and run
Testing proper charge on capacitors should be part of annual maint for proper system operation and to catch a future break down

 

engineerUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2009 10:47 PM
I'll add to my to do list to understand / verify effect of cap degradation on running efficiency. I'm all about finding ways to add value to annual maintenance calls, and I'm familiar with swollen cap syndrome.

Testing caps is as easy as you say and would certainly add value in heading off no heat / no cool calls.

We need to hear specifics from Tricia in Cow Hampshire to move this thread forward.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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08 Jan 2009 08:35 AM
Posted By geo fan on 01/07/2009 10:15 PM

Caps are rated to a certin charge UF

If there is a bad cell in the cap the unit will not start , they are easy to spot. bubble top

There is a plus minus range of 4-5% between rating and actual charge

In short a 45uF cap , may have a charge of 40.5 ( barely exceptable )

If the charge has droped to lets say 30-40 the unit will still start

but it will draw more amps at start and run
Testing proper charge on capacitors should be part of annual maint for proper system operation and to catch a future break down

 


The start capacitor is removed from the circuit once the compressor has started running and has no effect whatsoever on the running cost. Now if the run capacitor has gone bad, power consumption could increase a little bit, but if it was enough to be noticeable the capacitor would be burned!

By the way, capacitors are rated by their capacity, not "charge".  The starting current of the compressor is determined by the LRA (locked rotor amps), not by the size of the start capacitor. The run current depends on the load on the compressor and the capacitor has no bearing on this at all.

Paul.
triciadnhUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 12:23 PM
Sorry I have been unresponsive.  I won't have the details on the system until this weekend, so I will get back to you all with system details on Monday.

I can tell you that our geothermal installation company said that the system was running too long based on the air temperature outside and what we had the heat set at (65).  They are researching, but I am trying to get some facts on my own.

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far.  I will be back on Monday.
BrockUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 04:55 PM
Just to start what did you heat with before? What were the costs involved with the other heating method?

As a rough ballpark, if you spent say $150 on electricity and $300 on fuel oil a month, it would not be out of line to see a $350 electric bill with no fuel oil.
Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft
geo fanUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 06:41 PM
Posted By pyropaul99 on 01/08/2009 8:35 AM
Posted By geo fan on 01/07/2009 10:15 PM

Caps are rated to a certin charge UF

If there is a bad cell in the cap the unit will not start , they are easy to spot. bubble top

There is a plus minus range of 4-5% between rating and actual charge

In short a 45uF cap , may have a charge of 40.5 ( barely exceptable )

If the charge has droped to lets say 30-40 the unit will still start

but it will draw more amps at start and run
Testing proper charge on capacitors should be part of annual maint for proper system operation and to catch a future break down

 

[/quote]
The start capacitor is removed from the circuit once the compressor has started running and has no effect whatsoever on the running cost. Now if the run capacitor has gone bad, power consumption could increase a little bit, but if it was enough to be noticeable the capacitor would be burned!

By the way, capacitors are rated by their capacity, not "charge".  The starting current of the compressor is determined by the LRA (locked rotor amps), not by the size of the start capacitor. The run current depends on the load on the compressor and the capacitor has no bearing on this at all.

Paul.






The unit of capacitance is a farad. A 1-farad capacitor can store one coulomb (coo-lomb) of charge at 1 volt. A coulomb is 6.25e18 (6.25 * 10^18, or 6.25 billion billion) electrons. One amp represents a rate of electron flow of 1 coulomb of electrons per second, so a 1-farad capacitor can hold 1 amp-second of electrons at 1 volt.

A 1-farad capacitor would typically be pretty big. It might be as big as a can of tuna or a 1-liter soda bottle, depending on the voltage it can handle. So you typically see capacitors measured in microfarads (millionths of a farad).

If it takes something the size of a can of tuna to hold a farad, then 10,080 farads is going to take up a LOT more space than a single AA battery! Obviously, it is impractical to use capacitors to store any significant amount of power unless you do it at a high voltage.


Capacitors are rated in farads or as I stated at least 3 times above microfarads abv. Uf
capacitors store a charge this charge is used to even out large draws ( like LRA at start up )
Most smaller, single phase motors usually have a permanent magnet armature that is pushed / pulled around by the rotating inductive field produced by the stator (outside) windings. The inductive field rotates simply as a result of the positive / negative alternations of the 60HZ AC current flowing through the windings. The problem is that when the voltage is applied, the 60HZ is applied immediately, the rotation of the field through the windings begins immediately, and the armature has no chance to react (or catch up, as it were) to the field.

The start cap provides that electrical "push" to get the motor rotation started. It does this by creating a current to voltage lag in the seperate start windings of the motor. Since this current builds up slower, the armature has time to react to the rotating field as it builds up, and to begin rotating with the field. Once the motor is very close to it's rated speed, a centrifugal switch disconnects the start cap and start windings from the circuit. Watching a single phase motor starting you can see that this all happens very quickly.

Without a start cap (such as when one burns up) when the voltage is applied, the motor will just sit and hum. But if you were to grab the shaft and give it a spin, the motor would (usually) start and run normally

The run cap and aux. windings never drop out of the circuit in a cap-start, cap-run motor. The current to voltage lag is always present, which makes the motor act like a two phase motor. The advantage of a cap-start, cap-run motor over a cap-start, induction-run motor is that cap-run motors operate at a higher power factor than induction-run. Single cap-start / run motors use only one cap and are for lower torque applications. Two value cap-start / run motors use two caps, a higer value cap for starting, and lower value for running. The centrifugal switch switches from the high cap to the low cap, but the aux windings never leave the circuit. Two-cap motors are for higher torque applications. LIKE AC COMPRESSORS


Thanks though <!-- / message -->

geo fanUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2009 08:01 PM

The capacitors will offer Capacitive Reactance [Xc] to the circuit, while the typical loaded induction motor will offer Inductive Reactance [Xl] to the circuit. The [Xl] causes a lagging power factor and the CURRENT will lag behind the voltage. [Xc] causes a leading power factor and the VOLTAGE will lag behind the current. Low [50%] lagging power factor will cause the circuit [and load] to draw twice the current, which is the total kVA of the load. The kVA equals the TRUE POWER in watts, plus the REACTIVE POWER, in Volt-Amps Reactive [or kVAr's]. The kVA is called the APPARENT POWER. An example circuit below:

1-hp motor – 100-volt AC Squirrel Cage - nominal power factor [50% PF]. When motor is developing one full horsepower at the shaft, the branch circuit will be delivering 1,492 volt-amps [1.49kVA], which is 14.92-amps at 100-volts. Half of this kVA load is true power - in watts, which is 746-watts. The other half is reactive power - in VARs, which is 746-VAR. The total is 1,492kVA. By adding capacitors [Xc] in with the capacitance - in microfarads – it will equal somewhere near 746-VARs, the circuit's total kVA and power factor changes. At the transformer, up to where the capacitors are connected, the power factor is near unity [close to 100%]. This causes the total current on the branch circuit to be almost 7.46-amps. The reason why the capacitors will cause a lower current flow is because they "tune" the circuit and correct the power factor. Therefore, there is a lower current flowing because the overall change results in a lower kVA load on the circuit.

Another ( slightly more concise ) explaination on the relationship between capacitors and amp draw
While Im not saying the cap is bad simply it should be 1 of the things tested

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