TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 16 Jan 2009 08:59 AM |
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Background: 3500 sq ft house with two heating zones. Downstairs zone heated with a New Water Furnace Premier Geothermal system, the upstairs is heated with a Goodman heat pump, I think its 13 seer, definitely nothing better than 14 seer. There is only one wire running to the Goodman Air handler unit, a 12 Gauge wire at best, far as I can determine, there no Backup / AUX heat on the system.
Weather: Very cold, going down to the teens at night, sometimes the single digits, in the 20's during the day.
Mystery: How is the heat pump working at all? I know from my reading that a Heat pump stops extracting heat at around 35 degrees, so how is it working at all? I never really gave it too much thought, after all it some how kept the upstairs warm, so it must be working enough to maintain temperature.
A clue: After a meter reading last week, I'm once again on the road to another disappointing electric bill; I'm on track for a nice $400+ electric bill. Since I replaced the old downstairs geothermal system with a new Water furnace with Desuperheater, I expected improvements in the heating bills. After all, this is after replacing many of the lights with compact fluorescent bulbs and getting a new energy efficient dishwasher. But I forgot something... Last year I was playing around with set back temperatures and overall getting disappointing results. I felt the bills should be lower than they were with the setbacks I was doing. The whole problem with determining who much your saving is you need a baseline to compare the results with and my problem is I don't have one. I came to the conclusion that setbacks do not work for geothermal, it's better to just leave the temperostat alone. Since I'm the new owner of the house, I don't have any data to compare my figures to. My last house was an 800 sq ft rancher, heated by Natural gas, the highest bill ever was $200, but now I have a house with almost four times the sq. footage, so logically the gas bill should be in the $800 range if I was using similar heating method. Well out of desperation, last week I began to try and set back the temperatures for the two zones again, the upstairs is programmed to only decrease from 68 to 65 degrees, since past experience has shown me that the recovery time is longer for the heat pump and downstairs I have to manually set from 68 to 64, I turn it down at around midnight and do not turn it back up until I get home from work at 5pm the next day. I figured if I get promising results, I could buy a programmable thermostat later. Early results show the recovery time downstairs if pretty quick, even with the backup heat disabled.
Getting to the Point: Last night I set the downstairs to 63 and the upstairs is programmed to 65, when I got up this morning it was 63 upstairs. Hmm that's strange, it shouldn't be any colder than 64... Unless the downstairs is heating the upstairs. There a large return at the top of the stairs, what I’m now thinking is the heat from the downstairs to drawn into the return for the upstairs and is pulled thru system and heats the zone. The heat pump running outside isn’t adding any heat to the system; it's just chewing up KWH. I suspect that if I set the upstairs to fan only, and set the downstairs to 68, the upstairs will maintain 67 degrees. Question: when the system is set to Fan only, does it just run and run, or does it it shut off when it reaches the set temp of the thermostat? Any thoughts? |
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Palace Geothermal
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1609
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| 16 Jan 2009 09:11 AM |
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Hey TG...good to hear from you. Fan only means the fan will run 24/7. Some thermostats have an intermittent fan setting where it is on for 5 off for 15 or something like that. Here's hoping that your plan works! |
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 16 Jan 2009 09:23 AM |
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Newer Air source heat pumps can extract useful heat from 35 degree outdoor air
Open stairwell and large return will definitely cause downstairs warmth to move upstairs.
Fan only runs blower continuously, unit(s) cycle as thermostats require. Older PSC blowers use quite a bit of power, so running them continuously can substantially raise bill. If any of return ductwork is located in unconditioned space any leaks into it or poor insulation may dramatically increase heat load, and continuous fan will make matters worse. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Ona
 Basic Member
 Posts:189
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| 16 Jan 2009 09:58 AM |
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TG ~ Just for comparison, I have one unit with two zones. I set my downstairs zone to 64 and my upstairs zone to 60. My actual temperature downstairs is 64 (not suprising) and actual temp upstairs this morning was 66 (6 degrees above setpoint)! My downstairs is completely heating my upstairs to ABOVE either setpoint. So, if my unit is anything to compare, I'd bet your downstairs unit is heating your upstairs. |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 16 Jan 2009 11:13 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 01/16/2009 9:23 AM Newer Air source heat pumps can extract useful heat from 35 degree outdoor air
Fan only runs blower continuously, unit(s) cycle as thermostats require. Older PSC blowers use quite a bit of power, so running them continuously can substantially raise bill. If any of return ductwork is located in unconditioned space any leaks into it or poor insulation may dramatically increase heat load, and continuous fan will make matters worse. The Heat Pump is 8 years old, definitely NOT a newer unit. Agreed, a Fan that runs all the time will use more power, but I think a 120v fan will use less power than a 240v Compressor that runs without adding any benifits. If the down stairs is indeed heating the upstairs when the outside temperature is below a certain point this is the answer to my heating promblem, I'm wondering if I can rig up a thermostat directly to the unit. When the main thermostat is placed in Fan only mode I can set the thermostat at the unit itself to only turn of when the temperature downs below a certain point thereby running the fan. This will allow the fan only come one when required. When the weather is milder and I can once again get the benifits of the heat pump, I can set the main thermostat to heating or cooling and set the thermostat attached to the unit to alway be on. This way I have the best of both worlds. Does anyone know anything I can use to break a 120v line and attach a thermostat to it that to turn off and on at different temperatures? If I remember correctly, Thermostats for base board heaters directly make or break 120v lines. |
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Brock
 Advanced Member
 Posts:599

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| 16 Jan 2009 01:11 PM |
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Couldn’t you simply flip off the breaker powering the outside compressor? As your thermostat calls for heat the furnace fan should turn on, but will never get any "heat" from the outside heat pump. I guess there could be some sort of fan control that won't turn the fan on unless the air to air compressor is running, but I would give it a shot, simple to try anyway. |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 16 Jan 2009 03:27 PM |
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A 'line voltage' thermostat is what you need, though their current high rating for resistive load may be lessened (or unspecified, therefore not recommended) for an inductive load (any motor).
Are you quite sure you have "a 240v Compressor that runs without adding any benifits"? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 16 Jan 2009 03:42 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 01/16/2009 3:27 PM
Are you quite sure you have "a 240v Compressor that runs without adding any benifits"? Nope, but I'm willing to experiement. I don't see how a Heat Pump system that's 8 years old can extract any significant amount of heat when it's 7 degrees outside. When it's running, it seems like it spends half the time in defrost mode. I like brock's Idea of killing the breaker for the compressor, I'm going to try that when I get home today. |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 16 Jan 2009 11:45 PM |
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Well back to the drawing board. Things didn't work out as planned.
I set the downstairs heat to 70 degrees and turned down the temperature on the thermostat upstairs and switched it over to fan on. I tried to trip the compressor breaker, but the system wouldn't run at all with the compressor powered off. Over the course of 2 hours the temperature dropped from 63 degrees upstairs to 60, even with the downstairs at 70. I had to admit defeat and turn the heat pump back on. It's been running for 4 hours now, non stop, and it's only 63 degees upstairs now. The downstairs recovered from 65 degrees to 70 in just under an hour.
My next great idea is to set the upstairs temperature to a minimal level and get some kind of space heater for the master bedroom. After all me and my wife really only use the master bedroom and master bath upstairs. Other than the computer room and once a week for laundry, the other rooms upstairs are unused.
Maybe i can talk my wife into moving into the dining room downstairs.....
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 17 Jan 2009 08:36 AM |
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Any way to duct a bit of downstairs system air into upstairs system ductwork? Warm air will rise if you give it half a chance. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 19 Jan 2009 10:53 PM |
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Picked up an 1500 W oil filled electric Heater for 40 bucks. It takes 3 or 4 hours to get the bedroom up from 60 to 70 degrees, and then I switch it to a Med. setting and it keeps the room warm all night. I have the heat Pump thermostat set for 60 degrees and I haven't heard the system kick on once since Saturday. The downstairs provides some heat to the top of the stairs, but generally it's around 60 degrees upstairs. I leave the heater off all day. I'll try running like this for a month and see how the bills are. The temperature is a little milder this weekend but it's still in the teens at night.
Incendently, I tried to run the air source heat pump system on Emergency heat and it provided no heat at all. I'm suprised the system works at all when the outside temperature is below freezing. |
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senecarr
 Basic Member
 Posts:211
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| 20 Jan 2009 02:20 PM |
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You might also want to get an emergency space heater (one that kicks on if the temperature goes below 45) for the bathroom area. I can certainly attest to the fact cold pipes will break. |
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Eric D
 Basic Member
 Posts:104
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| 20 Jan 2009 02:29 PM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 01/19/2009 10:53 PM Picked up an 1500 W oil filled electric Heater for 40 bucks.
I never understood what the advantage of an oil filled electric heater. Why would you want this, just curious?
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| Eric D<br>Southern Michigan |
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squatch
 New Member
 Posts:33
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| 20 Jan 2009 02:40 PM |
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Posted By Eric D on 01/20/2009 2:29 PM
Posted By TechGromit on 01/19/2009 10:53 PM Picked up an 1500 W oil filled electric Heater for 40 bucks.
I never understood what the advantage of an oil filled electric heater. Why would you want this, just curious?
Thermal mass just like a soapstone woodstove or geothermal. Takes a while to get them hot but once warm they stay that way for a long time. Keeps the heating element from constantly cycling on and off. |
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Eric D
 Basic Member
 Posts:104
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| 20 Jan 2009 03:00 PM |
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I guess I’m just as confused as before. I understand thermal mass and that it would take longer to heat this oil (thermal mass) but what is the advantage over a run of the mill resistive wire with fan type heater? It would seem to me that a fan circulating heated air would cover a larger area, where just having a container of hot oil would be more localized heating. You totally lost me with the comparison to geothermal. Sorry…. |
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| Eric D<br>Southern Michigan |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 20 Jan 2009 03:38 PM |
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Posted By Eric D on 01/20/2009 2:29 PM
Posted By TechGromit on 01/19/2009 10:53 PM Picked up an 1500 W oil filled electric Heater for 40 bucks.
I never understood what the advantage of an oil filled electric heater. Why would you want this, just curious?
Why? Money. It cost a lot less to run a Oil filled heater 24/7 in one room (roughly $100 a month) then to run a Air Source Heat pump for the 2nd floor (3000watts 24/7 roughly $200 a month excluding Air handler fan) During the recent winter blast that most of the northern states have been experiencing the last few weeks my ASHP has be running pretty much 24/7 and has been unable to heat the 2nd flr warmer than 63 degrees. Using this method, while not ideal, will save me money, at least until the outside temperature is above 40 degrees and the ASHP runs efficently again. Yes the rest of the 2nd floor is colder, but I do get some heat from the 1st floor's Geothermal system so I don't think it will get so cold that I have to worry about pipes freezing. This is a short term solution for me when the weather is below freezing until I can afford to replace the ASHP with a new Geothermal system. I've been considering adding aux heat to the existing ASHP unit, that would just be a stop gap measure until I could get the whole system replaced. |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 20 Jan 2009 03:39 PM |
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Also I haven't been running the Electric Heater 24/7, only 3 or 4 hours before bed to get the temp up to 68 to 70 degrees than I set it to Med for the night, and turn it off in the morning. I figure running this way for then month should run me around $40, as opposed to the Air Source Heat Pump, which is costing me at least $200.
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Brock
 Advanced Member
 Posts:599

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| 21 Jan 2009 04:16 PM |
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I like the idea of somehow ducting air from the main floor up. I think you said, but what happens if you just leave the furnace fan set to "on". Does it warm up the upstairs better? I suppose your warming a bunch of space you’re not really using and even if it is basically heated from the main floor geo unit, it's still using more heat. What about an old fashion “pass through”, like a grate from the ceiling in the room below and a grate in the floor of the bedroom? I did this in our last house, we had insulated the between the finished basement walkout ceiling and main floor, then later we added a wood burner in the basement assuming it would all drift up the open basement stairwell, it didn’t I simply added an 8 inch ceiling vent, through some 8 inch flex ducting and opened it up under a kitchen cabinet and put a 12 inch grate on the front of the kickboard on that cabinet. It worked out really well and made a huge difference in the amount of heat in the kitchen.
Does your electric oil heater have a timer? If not that might be a nice creature comfort setting it to come on an hour before you would normally be up that and having it shut off at or before the time you are no longer up there as well. |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 22 Jan 2009 09:19 AM |
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Posted By Brock on 01/21/2009 4:16 PM I like the idea of somehow ducting air from the main floor up. I think you said, but what happens if you just leave the furnace fan set to "on". Does it warm up the upstairs better? I suppose your warming a bunch of space you’re not really using and even if it is basically heated from the main floor geo unit, it's still using more heat. Does your electric oil heater have a timer? If not that might be a nice creature comfort setting it to come on an hour before you would normally be up that and having it shut off at or before the time you are no longer up there as well. I've been trying to think of ways to duct the heat from the main floor, but there just no way to do it. Three of the master bedroom walls are exterior walls, opening anything up and inserting a flexiable duct in there is going to kill the installation for that section. I've not even sure with the heat loss involved if its going to be any warmer by the time it reaches the master bedroom. And the fourth wall isn't in line with the wall below it. I don't think making a hole in the floor and inserting a grate isn't much of a solution either. Judging from the heat I get at the top of the stairs, when the heat is 69 downstairs, I get 63 degrees heat to the bedroom and bathroom at the top of the stairs. The electirc oil heater doesnt have a timer, but I have time clocks I use to turn lights on at night so it looks like someone is home when I'm not, that would work. I've been setting the heat pump down to 58 during the day, I turn on the electric heater in the bedroom soon as I get home from work, it heats the master bedroom/bath up to 66 degrees, I turn it back off when I leave for work. My wife isn't thrilled with the idea, but after a $400 electric bill, I want to see how this works. I haven't checked the meter yet to see what the saving have been, if any. |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 22 Jan 2009 09:31 AM |
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Careful of amp capacity before you use a lamp timer for an electric heater. J |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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