What iS Geothermal?
Last Post 03 Feb 2009 10:01 PM by joe.ami. 7 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
TechGromitUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:634

--
02 Feb 2009 08:02 AM
What is Geothermal?
<!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
I'm sure you heard the word before, but just what does it mean. Well I'll try to explain it simple as possible.

First let's consider a Refrigerator. Ever wondered how a refrigerator works? A refrigerator extracts heat from inside the icebox and expels the heat outside the refrigerator via coils on the back or bottom of the unit, which in turn makes the air colder in the box. This is performed via a Heat pump, which basically just moves heat from one area to another. How does this work? All air above absolute zero has heat in it. You might say it's cold outside when it's 20 degrees outside, but that cold air contains heat, if it didn't the air would be frozen solid. Now granted 90 degree air has more heat than 20 degree heat, but the concept is the same. So a heat pump extracts heat from the air and moves it elsewhere.

Now an Air Source Heat Pump for a house is just a larger version of your refrigerator's heat pump. OK, so how's that help me heat my house? With a reversing value, the process can be reversed. So if we installed a reversing value on the refrigerator, we could make it heat items inside it instead of cooling, making is De-refrigerator, or an anti-refrigerator. With the reversing value, we would be extracting the heat from the air outside the refrigerator there by making it hotter inside the icebox.

In the winter an Air Source Heat pump extracts heat from the outside air and used that to heat your house and in the summer it extracts the heat from your house and expels it outside, there by making your house cooler.

So how is that better than Gas or Oil? Using a Heat pump the efficiency is something on the order of 2 to 2.5 more time efficient (COP) heating then oil of gas. If you were to have a 90% "High Efficiency" Gas furnace, for every 100 units of fuel you burned, you were get 90 units of heat for your house and 10 units would be lost in the process. With an Air Source Heat Pump, for every 100 units of fuel (electricity) burned (used) you would get 200 to 250 units of heat for your house. So even if electricity is more expensive then gas, the increased efficiency more and makes up for the difference, there by saving you $.

But there a problem. As it get colder outside, the Air Source Heat pump (ASHP) has to work harder and harder to extract enough heat out of the outside air which has less heat in it as it becomes colder and colder. Once the air get down to around 30 degrees, the ASHP can not extract enough heat out of the air to keep your house warm, also it loses it efficiency which made it such a bargain in the first place over gas.

But what if we could use something else besides air to extract heat from? Water from a well is the prefect alternative. For most of the northern United States, the ground temperature deeper than 30 feet down remains around 50 to 55 degrees all year round, thus any water you get from your well is 50 to 55 degrees. Now if we extract the heat from water, instead of the cold outside air, we could heat our house efficiently no matter how cold it was outside. Infact, with Water Based Heat Pumps, or Geothermal as it’s commonly called, can get as high as 5.0 COP, that is for every 100 units of fuel used, we could get 500 units back!

So what happens it you have a well that pumps water from the ground and to your geothermal heat pump. The heat pump extract heat from the water, there by making the water a little colder as it extracts heat from it. The water is then re-injected into the ground via a return well. It’s important to note that the well and the return well have to be far enough apart so that the colder water from the return well is not being sucked up by the main well. There has to be enough space between them so that the colder water has time to be heated by the surrounding water underground before being sucked up again.

No not all ground water can be used with geothermal heating systems, some ground water is unsuitable because it has too many impurities in it that adversely affect the geothermal equipment. In this case you would install a closed loop with consists of plastic pipes buried 8 to 10 feet underground. The water is then pumped in an endless loop under the ground to the geothermal heat pump and back to the underground loop again. As the water is pumped thru the closed loop it absorbs the heat from the surrounding ground before it returns to the heat pump again.

It’s important to understand that the earth is like a sponge. It absorbs heat from the sun in the summer and expels heat with it’s cold in the winter. This is why it stays around 50 degrees all year round for the northern United States. So if it’s hot as 90 degrees in the summer and cold as 20 degrees in the winter, the average would be somewhere around 50 degrees. Places where it’s colder year round, like Alaska, the ground temperature is lower and in places where it’s warmer like Hawaii the ground water is around 85 degrees because it’s not cold enough long enough for the earth to expel it’s heat.

So why it this important? When your heating your house with a closed loop geothermal system, your stealing heat from the earth. If your ground loop is too short, it’s possible to extract all of the heat from the ground over time, thus making it freeze underground. And once the temperature of the ground water drops low enough, the geothermal system is unable to more extract heat from it. A type of anti-freeze is in the close loop pipe to prevent it from forming ice so the pipes don’t crack, and the geothermal system has automatic lock out so it turns off when the water is too cold, but neither of them help you heat your house, they are protection measures.

So how big do your closed loops have to be? Well that would depend on the heating load of your house. The larger the house, the greater the heating load, in theory. It’s possible to have a small house with really lousy installation that has a greater heating load than a much larger house with really good installation. What heat/loss calculation is what really should be performed to give you a correct heating load, rather than run of thumb estimation based on square footage per ton. Once you know how big your load it, your system can be designed with the collect tonnage geothermal heat pump and how large of a ground loop you will need. What’s important to remember, bigger is better. It’s better to add extra footage of pipe to your ground loop, while it will cost you more to install it, it will never hurt your system. Nothing is worse than paying for a geothermal system and finding out half way thru winter your loops are too short and it stops working. The loops need to be large enough so as your extracting heat from the ground, it has time to recover the heat from the surrounding earth before you extract more heat from it.
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
02 Feb 2009 09:17 AM
I caution folks on the bigger is better theory. Diminishing returns should be factored in like anything else. Don't forget that extra load requires extra work......more loops = more pumps = more antifreeze = more $ = longer pay back.........
Also excavation depths require significantly more work once you are below 5-6 feet which means more cost. Depths of 8-10' are virtually unheard of around here. In MI system designs are based on 5'.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
robinncUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:586

--
02 Feb 2009 10:43 PM
I have been here quite awhile and STILL don't know exactly how long the field should be per ton. It 'seems' the average is around 120ft. Is there an exact measurement per 'ton'?? I hear of all these systems being installed with several 400' lines. Is this the actual length of the trench or the amount of tubing??  Hell, majority of lots are not even that long! I was going to start another thread but it seems alot of folks have 'looked' at this thread. I know the closed loops are run with 'loops' of pipe. How many feet does each loop has? For instance, if I needed a 4 ton unit, how long/wide would the actual trench have to be??
tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:630
Avatar

--
03 Feb 2009 01:54 AM
Engineer loves when I pipe up about DX. This is why DX is so much simpler. With EarthLinked, typical drilled is 100' per ton. Horizontal trench is 125' of trench, or 250' of loop per ton; horizontal pit is 5 x 100' x 1/4" (five loops of 100' copper) per ton. It's very cut and dry. NO Guessing, NO crystal ball of what the earth might be made up of...SIMPLE!
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
OnaUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:189

--
03 Feb 2009 07:55 AM
I realize that I am not the professional here, but every bit of research that I've done on this topic (both before and after my geo install) states that the soil type can be a very important factor in choosing loop length. For example, sandy soil will take heat away or give heat to the loop very differently than clay soil.

So, I guess my point here is that the reason you can't get an exact number for length of loop per ton may be due to the fact that the number may vary in different locations due to different soil types.

I have taken a small (very little) amount of the info on this subject and placed it in my website if you want to take a look at it:

http://www.geochoices.com/soil_and_ground_conditions.html
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
03 Feb 2009 08:47 AM
Ona,
With the exception of DX or single pipe trenches, you are correct that you'll have many ft/ft of trench. In our case, we use about 6ft/ft in either slinky or 6 pipe trench (3 down and back pipes). You are correct in assuming that different soils make for different performances with every heat pump. DX mitigates this some with the addition of crusher dust in their trenches but it still performs better in some soils than others. By the same token most closed loop guys use rules of thumb (often divided by lengths that tube is purchased in).
In my area we buy 600' rolls of 3/4" pipe, so our slinkies (1/ton) are about 100' long (6ft/ft). Generally if we have extremely dry soil, we would not try to install a fractional slinky, we would simply add an extra one. Curiously that makes my water source trenches shorter than my DX trenches but I'll have more pipe for water source.
The next thing that factors in is the amount of heat in the ground/heat required. The milder the climate, the more stable the ground temperature the less loop you need. The closer the heating load is to the cooling load the less likely you are going to need additional footprint for extreme loads on either end (in MI for instance we have noted that loop temperatures may run around 30* in January, if we were to use the same length loop as some one in KY we would probably have EWT's under 20*).
Finally the type of loop or system you use may be determined by soil or property conditions. Water source loops can follow grade, for instance, while DX has a maximum lift and required pitch. Personally I like water source on hilly lots, it can mean a lot less excavation. A peat bog would be an okay place for water source loops but not great for PH sensitive DX copper loops. Long and narrow areas available for excavation are okay for water source but DX only reaches 125' (in one recent case, DX would have had to go vertical while water source could reach the back of the lot and go horizontal). Small square or retangular pit excavations for DX will fit in smaller lots often saving the expense of going vertical with water source.
Finally, local codes may impact decision on loop type. Oakland county MI for instance charges a per well permit fee (about $250) making it beneficial to have less vertical loops in very deep wells vs many shallow wells.
If this seems like a lot to know, you are correct. That is why we often suggest folks go with the local contractors experience. They are the ones, after all, that have to warranty performance.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
OnaUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:189

--
03 Feb 2009 09:18 AM
Wow Joe, lots of info! Thanks for sharing it.

I depended on my contractors experience in the design on my system and so far I have been satisfied. While others may feel that my system may be "undersized" I believe it is "right sized*" for my area and application.

*I got the term "righ-sized" from one of your previous posts and I'm stealing it because I believe it's more appropriate.
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
03 Feb 2009 10:01 PM
I've appreciated your insight and candor as well.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 181 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 181
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement