pleppik
New Member
Posts:2
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| 13 Feb 2009 10:22 PM |
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I'm a homeowner in the Minneapolis area, and our gas furnace is on its last legs. We're looking at replacing it with a GSHP this summer, and I'm looking for any advice from the people who've been there before.
I've already done some rough cost estimates, and I think I know what the payback will be. I've also found three local contractors/dealers to interview (and one to avoid).
Here are some of the things I'm wondering:
* Every dealer says their brand of heat pump is the best. Are there brands which have better reputations, or which might be better suited to our frigid climate?
* Are there things I should look for/avoid--features, design elements, etc?
* Are there things you wish you knew before you installed your system?
Thanks! |
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TechGromit
Advanced Member
Posts:634
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| 13 Feb 2009 10:38 PM |
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As far as I'm aware, there is only three major brands of Heat pumps they include Florida Heat Pump, Climate Master and Water Furance, all three are excellent brands. There are a number of rebrands, such as Carrier, Byant and Comfort-Aire are all just Climate Master units with different stickers. FHP and Water Furnace also have some re-branding as well. Most contractors tend to push a certain brands, but usually you can insist on a praticular brand and they can get it. If it was me, I would stick with one of the three primary brands and avoid rebrands. There was an issue recently where Water Furnace refused to honor warranty claims for Enertech (GeoComfort) that re-branded water furances and the vender dropped the entire line. Personally I just had a Water Furnace installed, which was replacing a FHP that lasted for 19 years. Water Furnace supposely has the best warranty, but I've been reading recently that some people be having problems with WF honoring them... of course I find this out AFTER I have one installed.
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cnygeo
Basic Member
Posts:170
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| 14 Feb 2009 12:38 AM |
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There is also Hydron (recently bought by somebody). They are not as large as the other three, but I believe they have a good reputation - I've never heard of any issues.
More relevant to you is probably Econar in Minnesota. Being local I'm sure they have a strong dealer and support network and as far as I've heard their products are comparable to the "majors" in quality. They market their heat pumps as "cold climate" which is not particularly meaningful for geothermal, but going by specs their units are designed with an emphasis on heating capacity rather than cooling. I've been reasonably happy with mine.
Also several Canadian companies that might be worth checking out - I'll post if I remember their names. Again, they would have more emphasis on heating performance and even if it doesn't make a huge difference for the heat pump itself thier dealers are more likely to size the system and loops correctly for a Northern climate.
Unless you get a real lemon, design and installation are far more important than brand in my opinion.
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bmancanfly
New Member
Posts:79
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| 14 Feb 2009 09:00 AM |
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Anybody heard of the "Mcquay" brand? |
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IdahoGEO
New Member
Posts:17
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| 14 Feb 2009 09:38 AM |
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I agree you can't go wrong with the three majors. I personally like WaterFurnace (of course, that's what we install). I like WaterFurnace because they require you to do two things: Have an IGSHPA Installer Certification, and also attend and pass their WaterFurnace factory direct training course. Climate Master and any other brand had no requirements (my personal experience only here). Also, if you go with WaterFurnace, make SURE you fill out the warranty card and mail it in right away!!!!!!! You shouldn't have any problem with the warranty if you mail this info card in.
In choosing a contractor, I would ask the following:
How many closed loop systems have they installed?
Who will design / size the loopfield?
Get phone numbers for 3 customers on closed loops they installed?
You can also ask for engineering data. See what the COP of thier equipment is at 30degree EWT. All majors will be similar, but the data should be easily provided and explained to you by the contractor.
Ask them what the design min. EWT for your loopfield will be? Look at the COP data.....don't try to skimp on the loops & they should know what your soil type is too
Lastly, I would recommend 2-stage, R410A, Variable speed blower. Guys are still installing R-22 PSC blower systems here (without HWG's). If you're going to spend that kind of cash on a system that should last 20 years, get the top of the line model!?!?!?!?!? Buying a brand new R-22 PSC system today is like installing a $4,000 set of wheels and tires on a 1970 something piece of junk! |
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| You're only as good as your last install... |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Feb 2009 09:38 AM |
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Curiously, Mcquay is now owned by Daiken (an ASHP maker).
I'm with Cnygeo on this. We've had folks here with complaints about every brand (more often than not, it's the installer that's the problem). The units we consistantly hear the most complaints on are those that are water to air but have on-demand hot water as opposed to a DSH (de-super heater).
You might google free source energies in Redwood Falls and ask for John.
Make sure you check everybody's references and keep us posted,
joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 14 Feb 2009 11:02 AM |
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Posted on 02/14/2009 9:38 AM
I like WaterFurnace because they require you to do two things: Have an IGSHPA Installer Certification, and also attend and pass their WaterFurnace factory direct training course.
I am sure WF makes good equipment. I want to point out here that just because a person is IGSPHA certified and WF certified, does not mean that they are well qualified. I have taken both of these courses and they only gloss over the basics. There is little to no time spent on design and no in the trench, hands on experience. Granted we all have to start some place and these two courses are a good place. The ideal installer would have training and several years of on the job experience. There are courses online and in person that teach design. If you want to design systems, you really need to take a design course. I am pretty sure that most designs are still done using rule's of thumb or I heard that you need this much loop. How else do we explain the numerous short looped jobs that people come here with. I cringe when ever I hear " my heating guy has never done geo, but he thinks he can figure it out." If we were to go by sheer numbers, I bet there are more complaints on this board about WF than any other. Granted WF has more market share, so this might be expected. However I recall several issues on installations done by some " WF Master Installers". My point here is to emphasize that some one considering having a geo system installed, BUYER BEWARE. Especially if this new incentive comes to pass. There will be an influx of new installers wanting to cash in.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 14 Feb 2009 11:40 AM |
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Again agree with Dewayne. I've mentioned here before that i don't get too many WF complaints, but suspect it's more to do with the installers than the product. I'm personally happy with the Climatemaster products but not as happy in their dealer selection. And that's why we harp on the references. How established the out fit is matters as well, they can better afford to make you happy even if problems are not their fault.
Sometimes local building officials will offer referrals as well. Not a bad reference if the inspectors like a company's work.
J
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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IdahoGEO
New Member
Posts:17
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| 14 Feb 2009 11:59 AM |
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Dewayne, you're absolutely right. I'm sure WF has it's own many issues. There are a lot of messed up systems here that give the industry a bad name. And, they're still being installed. Just like you said, these new incentives are going to lead to more messed up systems.
It's got to be hard for a homeowner to choose a contractor. If you don't even know what a heat pump is, it's got to be information overload trying to choose. We should provide some solid info here to help out if we can. You're also right that factory training isn't much, but it's something. More training than some have here in ID. We're 10 years behind over here with GEO. Maybe because we're paying $.065 / KWH?
An installer should know what HE is, and a simple 3 day factory training can teach you that. I'm sure the knowledge base and pool of quality contractors is much greater in UT. |
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| You're only as good as your last install... |
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 14 Feb 2009 01:48 PM |
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Don't disregard direct exchange GSHP's, mainly Earthlinked in you research. I am sure Clark will advise.
I am happy with my Climatemaster Tranquility 27, with a horizontal loop. So far this winter, it has been trouble-free and quiet, with low operation cost and cheap hot water. I'm hoping ClimaDry option will keep humidity down in summer, without too much chilling.
Whatever equipment you choose, I have to say installer, installer, ... and a compatible personality.
My prediction is that tax incentives are going to drive prices up!
Regards, Masoud |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 14 Feb 2009 02:36 PM |
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You guys always make my point before I even get around to reading the posts...I digress.
I would definitely check out climatemaster, waterfurnace, Hydron Module, Econar, FHP, and above all, EarthLinked DX. Compare them all, and make sure you have a good installer that will follow the manufacturer's recommendations/designs/procedures. Closed loop vs. closed loop, the DX most likely will be a lower price, and will be a higher COP, too.
Get references, too. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 15 Feb 2009 09:31 PM |
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Masoud's point about installer personality is a good one as well...I know I'm not for everybody :)
There are more than a few mavericks in the building trades and some will not appeal to you. I know many contractors who's customers love or hate them with little in between. His other comment about prices going up is true.
I know demand had me working 7 days from August to Christmas, and I wont be doing that again without a higher margin. Newbies will be cheaper though and may drive some guys prices down.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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geo_curious
New Member
Posts:4
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| 23 Aug 2011 02:33 PM |
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I've read a few threads like this and it seems to come down to the installer, not the brand (WF, CM, ECONAR). What's the best resource for investigating installers/contractors? |
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Jen
New Member
Posts:1
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| 21 Sep 2011 10:48 AM |
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We got references and referrals but you still need to be careful as they only give out their most satisfied customers. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 22 Sep 2011 07:42 AM |
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Sometimes local building departments will offer opinions. It is always nice to have someone who inspects another's work endorse their skill.
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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