" Last month was 2036 kwh cp to 368 last year in much colder temp. Actual reading not estimate"
This was your quote a few blogs ago, which implied to me that your one month usage was just under $189 for heating electric.
Your latest contribution is:
While waiting to take temps at various stages, I calculated my gas/electric usage for the last 2 years in the same time period (Oct 3-Dec 3)

2007 - mild weather - gas/electric - $128

2008 - cold weather - gas/electric - $189

2009 - mild weather - no gas/ just electric - $393

These numbers offer little outside of determining whether you are saving money with geo. As I don't know how much is gas and how much is electric it has little diagnostic value.
You are also showing me a different KWH price than your installer entered into his software.
That's important because that would add 40% to your operating cost over projections. IOWs it would be closer to $1,050/yr to heat the house than $750. This is noteworthy as it would make $189 closer to expected usage.

All that said:
Your E and L water temps look okay, your air temps do not.
If you look in the manual it should suggest a delta T (temp. difference) for E and L air temps at 20+*F. Book shows leaving air temps in high 80's to high 90's (F) depending on CFM. Before I guess that as a smoking gun, where are you taking the air temps? You should take them at the heat pump, not the registers upstairs.

At this point if you took air temps at the appliance, I'll next need to know the CFM which is indicated by the led on the CXM board (consult the book and be very very careful of live wires in the system).
If you measure at the unit and your temps show a ~20 or more Delta T then we need to explore whats engaging stage 3.

I'll re run your op cost projections with the new electric rate and compare to your gas system, but I need to know how efficient your old furnace was and i need you to confirm the price of gas ($1.50/therm?).
Finally did you have gas or electric hot water before.
J

My air temps were taken just before entering the air filter and just as it exits the unit into the air ducts on the other side of unit from filter.

2007 - mild weather - gas $65/electric $63 - $128 two month usage

2008 - cold weather - gas $105/electric $84 - $189 two month usage

2009 - mild weather - no gas/ just electric - $393 two month usage

Strange that LAT is in low 80s regardless of stage. CFMs at all 3 stages would help with this.

12-15 airside delta T is a problem, for sure.

2 month electric usage again is not huge at $250, but as you point out it is early in the season and we're not getting much LAT.
By the way if I haven't mentioned it, I had to consult the book to see what LAT should be, and I often consult manuals on heat pumps and thermostats at peoples homes. In fact I write on the manuals that they are required for service and should not be removed. I mention that as it alone should not cause you to lose confidence in a technician.
go to the portion of your owners manual that has the Performance Data for the TT038 and look up the LAT's. They vary by CFM which i mentioned above.
If your measurements are accurate then we can not trouble shoot remotely, but it should compel original installer or someone to look more closely.
Joe

Thanks for all your help, Joe. I'll use your info to ask the installer questions to get more data.

Welcome for the help.
Ask installer about elec. rates used in his calcs that don't appear to agree with your actual cost.
Also let me know wheter gas price is accurate on that sheet, tell me what kind of water heater you had before (as well as # of users) and what kind of furnace.
Many of your indications are close to spec. so if they didn't look closely it'd be easy to miss. Best to have an "anyone could have missed it" mind set when discussing this with them. That'll keep their mind set open instead of defensive.
J

Loop problems are common with closed loop geothermals. When your loops are filled they need to be flushed properly to insure that all the air was removed from the loops. This is usually the well drillers responsibility. The other problem with closed loops is getting the reynolds rate correct. The fluid in the loop needs to flow at a certain rate, if its to fast or to slow then the heat transfer rate is much less. The only way to figure the Reynolds rate is by using a formula based on the size of your pump and the fluid used in the loops. I am no good at diagnosing a problem with out being there, but if your installer is having problems figuring out why your auxillary heat is coming on so often then usually its a problem with the loop. Most HVAC contractors can figure out everything on the unit but the loops throw us for a loop. Given that the unit and thermostat is working correctly and your auxillary is still coming on then I would bet your reynolds rate is wrong or you have air in the loop. I would be asking my contractor if they have a factory rep that they could bring with them to help them diagnose why the strip heat is even comeing on before its gotten cold. I hope the info helps and remember we are all on a learning curve and the only people who know the equipment well enough to diagnose tougher problems are usually the factory representatives.

HHCI

Look back at Taffy's posted EWTs and LWTs - loop performance seems OK

engineer: "Strange that LAT is in low 80s regardless of stage."

I don't know whether or not Taffy has Climadry on Tranq 27. But if she does, could some cold loop water somehow circulate in "reheat coil" and cool off leaving air?

Regards,

Masoud

In winter? Gawd, I hope not!

I don't know Climadry particularly well, but I believe it to be a hot gas reheat arrangement. In other words in times of high latent but low sensible cooling load, building air is cooled to wring out water in the evaporator, but then somewhat reheated in a second coil that gets some hot gas off the compressor so little or no sensible cooling of the building occurs.

No loop water is involved in Climadry, to my knowledge.

Engineer is correct Climadry is hot gas reheat not water.

Sorry guys CM's Climadry is Hot Gas "Generated" Reheat. The reheat coil is water to air. The refrigeration circuit is no different from their regular heat pumps.

www.climatemaster.com/index/climadry

They are simply bypassing the ground loop with a 3 way valve and modulating actuator control for reheat coil temp (well maybe it's not that simple).

You can learn more here-

http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/LC360.pdf


There could be a problem there if the valve is stuck and allowing flow to the reheat coil while in heating mode. Good call Masoud!

Oops my bad! I only read the hot gas in a spec sheet and thought it worked like WF.

Come to think of it WF did something like that in a duel fuel application a long time ago.
Problem was if the air coil froze up it cracked the water coil.

I am also just a homeowner, but I have 2 Tranquility 27 units.  What you are describing sounds like what happens when the unit locks out.  If the electric resistance coil is locked in the off position, and the unit locks out (freeze protection), the fan will blow at high speed circulating cool/cold air.  Here what happened to me and how I fixed it...

Early on I had an issue with a misbehaving thermistor.  The unit kept locking out for no good reason, and the fan would blow like crazy.  With a new thermister and a knowledgeable tech on the phone, I fixed it myself.  There are only two wires to splice.

Do you know if your unit is locking out?  If you open the service panel and flip down the cover over the electronics, you will see a green LED.  If it is flashing quickly, the unit is locked out.  You will have to cut the power for a minute or two and turn it back on. 

Make sure the thermostat is calling for heat.  The units are usually set for a random start, so you may have to wait a few minutes to hear the compressor start.  When it does, you will know.  It will sound very much like a refrigerator running.

Let the unit run and see if it locks out again.  If it does, and you are sure the loop temperature is not too low, it is likely a bad thermistor.  The guy that installed mine directed me right to the problem over the phone.  He said Climate Master has had problems with thermistors in the past.

If this is your problem, I be glad type you though taking that thermistor out of the picture.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Ed    

 

My bad also!

Thank you, Ed. It's not something I'd try myself while I'm still trying to get the installer to take the responsibility to get it into proper running condition, but I will ask the technician. They sent one this time who actually seems to know the Tranq 27 and realizes there is more than one stage to it, so I now have more hope of results. Will try out your suggestion on him and watch for the green light myself when he's here. All advice is much appreciated - also, knowing that I'm not the only one with problems of this kind is heartening.

Cheers, Taffy

FYI, on my Tranq 27 with the "DXM" control board, there's a steady green "on" light, and the blinking light is red. If everything is working fine, it blinks once every 10 seconds. Otherwise it'll blink a certain number of times in a row - corresponding to table 6a on page 50 of this manual: http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/97B0075N01.pdf.

It's easy enough to keep an eye on the led blink codes and LWT from time to time as Ed suggests. Four quick blinks in a row indicates that the FP1 water coil thermistor has locked out. Five blinks indicates that the FP2 air coil thermistor has locked out.

You mention a LWT of 31.1 deg F in stage 2. That is cold enough to trigger the FP1 lockout if the JW3-FP1 Low Temp jumper on the control board has not been disabled (cut).  Of course this jumper should only be cut if your loops have adequate anti-freeze protection. I'm guessing that your installer has taken care of all this already, but it doesn't hurt to check.

Ok guys,
enough about lock-outs.
Taffy your description of the problem does not resemble a locked out appliance. With aux. off if you were locked out you would have no Delta T between EAT and LAT. Don't trouble your repairman with this or most of our questions. Focus on the air temp Delta.
Joe

Joe: Am I missing something here? In one place I read that the auxillary heat never came on - then in another place I read that 3rd stage is running often. Isn't the auxillary heat the 3rd stage?

HHCI: "The fluid in the loop needs to flow at a certain rate, if its to fast or to slow then the heat transfer rate is much less." That is close but no cigar. The higher the reynolds number the higher the heat transfer (for real world GSHP applications). The flow rate needs to be high enough to generate turbulent flow.

The third stage (aux heat) is running often, usually blowing out coolish (65-68') air because installer told me to keep the breaker off that controls the electric coils. So third stage is on in terms of heavy blowing out vents, but not able to activate electric heat.

What boosts the rate of flow - is this an adjustment the installer can be asked to make? How will he know what the correct rate is? I just want to be prepared to ask the right questions and know that the answers are reasonable.

Taffy