Posted By geome on 12 May 2010 06:47 PM
A neighbor has an automated pellet boiler for heat and hot water. I believe he puts pellets into the automatic feeder once per week in the winter (VA winter.) He told me that his pellet prices have increased 2-2.5 times since he installed it about 4 years ago and that he has changed his pellet supplier several times due to price and supply issues. Overall, he likes the system. If you decide to go with something like this, verify your supply ahead of time and I would ask for pricing history to check for price stability.

This system doesn't help with air conditioning costs though. He is looking into getting a wind turbine. We decided to go geothermal instead. :-)

Geo makes a lot more sense in VA than it does NH, where the ground temps are 10F warmer, and design-day temps 15F warmer, with 3-5x as many cooling degree-days.  (My AC load here in MA is pretty much latent-load only, with ~300CDD sensible, compared to ~1500CDD for many places in VA.)  A heating-season COP>3.0 would be pretty common in VA, if rare in NH.

I would like to throw in my 2 cents as a homeowner :o)

I "kinda" understand the thought process of figuring out how long the payback period is for a geo system because I look at those numbers for my own system. But I would also like to throw out that if your looking for quick paybacks, geo is not the way to go in the northeast.

The fact is, when people look at purchasing any appliance or traditional HVAC system in their home, I have never heard someone ask "what is the payback on this system." You can talk economics and finance (most of which I don't get), but when making this decision, you will find that most geo owners are people who:

*consider themselves environmentalists and/or,
*want to lessen their dependency on oil and/or,
*find some pride in being early innovators of new technology.

The 30% credit has made it more of a sound financial decision and quicker payback, but it is still quite an investment (as you've found out for yourself).

The real question is where do you want to put your money? My husband and I decided to forego something like the $35,000 Ford truck or Acura or whatever (which many spend their money on) and instead invest in an HVAC system which makes us less dependent on oil, no matter what the cost of oil is. We also got the perk of having air conditioning in our old home for the first time and do hope to save money in the long run.

So, it was our own personal decision based on our own personal preferences. We opted for an older and smaller (but not small) home, cheaper cars, and what we consider better HVAC. You will have your own preferences/priorities. But if anyone is looking for the quick payback, which is an unfortunate expectation in our current society, I don't think that this is it.

Now that all my philosophical thoughts are out (I am Greek, so philosophy comes first), I am quite pleased with the results of the economics for my geo system:

*Prior to geo we used ~1000 gallons of oil per year in an 80-84% efficient oil burner (we do not have the option of NG).
*The cost of fuel oil in previous 4 yrs ranged from $2.39 to $3.69 (i.e. $2,400 - $3,700 per year to heat my home).
*The past two winters since I've had geo, I have spent $800 - $900 each year to heat my home.
*I am certain of how much I spent for geo (KWHrs) because I paid to have submeters attached to my system.
*I live in Upstate NY in a 1950 sq ft home with attic insulation (R-39), newer windows, but little to no wall or basement insulation.
*I have a 3 ton closed loop system.

thanks Ona

Ona... I would love to hear more about your experience with geo. I am in Lake George, NY.

What town for you?
What are you paying per KWH?
What brand is your GEO?
Who installed?
Cost?
What parts of existing HVAC did they keep and what did they pull out?
Do you have domestic hot water as part of the GEO?
And any other interesting facts I may have left out.
Thanks
Bill

Oh and comfort...

Sound... fast moving air... on 24/7 when cold?
cool air coming from registers a bother?

adkjacUstateNY: In new constructon with ECM air-handlers and strategic duct placement the noise and skin-cooling issues aren't terrible (but it's not nearly as comfy as hydronic heat.) The only time the air's moving fast is at 5AM on the coldest nights of the year under peak load conditions, when sane people are usually still in bed. A whole new duct system is an expensive retrofit to an oil-fired hot-air system though. Going with retrofit low-temp radiant floor (like WarmBoard) is even MORE expensive than a duct-ectomy, but very nice to live with, and quite reasonable to do with geo. (The old forced hot air ducts might still be used for AC using the geo, even if the heating is all-hydronic.)

Ona: Fuel has to get VERY expensive to make decommissioning a functioning system and replacing it with geo a solely economic decision, eh? But retrofitting those nearly empty walls with more insulation could be both and economic & comfort upgrade. In many houses it's cheaper to insulate-away a ton of peak load than it is to drill more geo to support that ton, and is worth more than that extra ton of geo in comfort terms- rasing the interior temp of the exterior walls even 3-5F has a significant effect on human comfort at a given air temperature. Insulating basements is sometimes HUGE in terms of barefoot comfort on the first floor (and is typically cuts 15% or more off the seasonal heat loss.)

Anyone looking at systems as expensive to install geo is well-advised to give the building envelope a thorough review, and retrofit what is reasonably retrofittable (not just the "dead easy" retrofits like attic insulation, but really look it over, pressure test for air leaks, IR image for insulation gaps, etc, even replace the worst-offending windows & doors.) Taking off ton here, a ton there of peak load with insulation & infiltration fixes makes a difference in both the up front cost of the geo and the resulting comfort level.

(It's tough being Greek these days, getting blamed for the state of the Euro, eh? ;-) )

Dana... explain to me the duct changes when going to GEO... I noticed that the Green GEO guy says he can install high velocity ducting... which from what I gather means using the sound absorbing ducting that high velocity AC must use right?

All I know is... my own home.... which has a failed cheap air heat pump that used to go El back up adding to huge $$$ monthly... was too damn loud for me to listen to kicking on and off all night long..

and a home I built years ago... subbed out install hot air oil... man was that sucker loud... It bothered me to listen to it while I was in the home doing the trim out and kitchen install making my own noise... I couldn't imagine living in that home ever.

Must be why I prefer radiant... and ECM for sure.. I do not want to hear the air move or the furnace/boiler period.

*consider themselves environmentalists and/or,
*want to lessen their dependency on oil and/or,
*find some pride in being early innovators of new technology.

Very good point wish more people had your values Kim

Geo surely addresses energy independence, and is perhaps the best conservation choice in many retrofit situations, but it remains a partial answer. According to a US DOE report on electric generation by source, oil accounted for 30 percent of U.S. generation in 2008 ( while natural gas was 40 percent; coal, 10 percent; nuke, 10 percent; and renewables including hydro, 10 percent.)

Nor is the electric grid environmentally friendly. With 80 percent of electric generation relying on fossil fuels, power plants are right up there with cars as producers of greenhouse gases. Utilities will figure expensively in a response to global warming when it comes.

And to add a caveat to Dana's oil analysis, geopolitical shocks come in two flavors, although most people assume they are always bad for consumers. Fast growing economies in the developing world have a habit of crashing and burning: Japan in the '80s; Mexico and Brazil in 1994; Russia and the Asian Tigers in 1998; Argentina in 2001. One suspects that China and India will take their turn in the barrel, pun intended. In '98, the ruble crisis drove crude oil prices to $10.

IMO, we need to switch to nat gas and electric for cars and nuclear for electricity (with geo for heating and cooling). No speculative technologies involved, fairly clean, adequate supplies (for awhile) and less promotion of wars and terrorism.

Posted By toddm on 17 May 2010 11:26 AM
Geo surely addresses energy independence, and is perhaps the best conservation choice in many retrofit situations, but it remains a partial answer. According to a US DOE report on electric generation by source, oil accounted for 30 percent of U.S. generation in 2008 ( while natural gas was 40 percent; coal, 10 percent; nuke, 10 percent; and renewables including hydro, 10 percent.)

Nor is the electric grid environmentally friendly. With 80 percent of electric generation relying on fossil fuels, power plants are right up there with cars as producers of greenhouse gases. Utilities will figure expensively in a response to global warming when it comes.

And to add a caveat to Dana's oil analysis, geopolitical shocks come in two flavors, although most people assume they are always bad for consumers. Fast growing economies in the developing world have a habit of crashing and burning: Japan in the '80s; Mexico and Brazil in 1994; Russia and the Asian Tigers in 1998; Argentina in 2001. One suspects that China and India will take their turn in the barrel, pun intended. In '98, the ruble crisis drove crude oil prices to $10.

The likely oil consumption in 2020 of one India or one China is worth all of the other recently-developed Asian or Latin American economies put together.  Oil production is unlikely to be able to increase anywhere nearly as rapidly as demand going forward.

Oil prices crashed after the spike in the '80s less from Japan's economic woes that due to US & European energy policy changes, deregulating oil prices and implementing fuel economy standards causing OPEC to crash (in combination with a Saudi interest in pumping to keep the price low enough that US policies didn't shift even further, putting them out of business.) The US had a much larger share of worldwide oil consumption and influence on than it does now, but by 2020 the US influence on the market will be much diminished unless development in China & India goes completely off the rails.

Clever ways of extending production in older oil fields have been developed in the past 30 years, but the low-hanging fruit in the oil biz is mostly plucked- even aggressive exploration & drilling can't be counted on to fill the void if/when China & India go all first-world on us (we're talking an order of magnitude more people than the US & Japan).  China's oil consumption has now soundly outstripped Japan's and shows no sign of slowing down.  By 2020 even if the US doesn't cut back, China will be consuming more oil than the the US.  Japan is currently burning about 24% of what team USA burns, China is burning about 37% of the US rate, India about 13%.  Reference  China will likely double, maybe even triple it's oil consumption by 2020 if current trends continue.

US policy shifts could again keep oil prices down in the short term, but probably not for the intermediate or longer term. Only reducing our use, in combination with stepped up exploration at a rate sufficient to keep pace with developing-world increases in demand would keep the price low, but even if we cut our use by 50% by 2020 (which is not likely, IMHO), China alone will more than pick up that slack.  World oil production is highly unlikely to double in the next decade, nor is the mix of transportation fuels likely to be radically changed in that time frame.  The premium may have to be paid for transportation fuel, but boiler fuels have more options.  The domestic production of natural gas CAN increase dramatically over the next decade, and most likely will as it becomes the cleaner fuel of choice for electricity production than coal (gas has only 45% of the carbon per kwh of coal even at standard powerplant efficiencies, ~25% of the carbon footprint of the average coal plant in state of the art combined-cycle gas generators), and as the rising price of oil for transportation fuel makes it economic to switch from oil to gas for space heating wherever the gas-grid extends.

Also while the grid is far from green, you've overstated the role of oil in electrical production by quite a bit. EIA estimates puts liquid oil-fired electricity at about 0.8% of production in 2008.  Petroleum liquids + petroleum coke combined accounted for ~1.1% of electrical power production in 2008, far below 30%.  Hydro & renewables already contribute an order of magnitude more electrical production than petroleum fuel sources.

It doesn't take a crystal ball to figure out where long term oil prices are headed, but policy decisions in Beijing & New Delhi will likely have a far higher effect on the 2050 price than anything the US does. With any luck much of the transportation sector will be electrified, with far more fuel-flexibility than the current US model.   If not, we're destined to be a 3rd rate has-been economy, having given all the wealth to oil producers.

Mea culpa. I used a summer generation EIA table and reversed the contributions of coal and oil (apparently as a peaking fuel.) Other than that....

The point of my caveat is that developing economies DO go completely off the rails at regular intervals. In a simplified world view, the Chinese must learn how to spend and we must learn how to save for the global economy to keep chugging along. Unless you think China Inc is going to be smarter than Japan Inc, and that the US will start paying in cash, I would expect long, chugless periods ahead. Happily, humans learn and adapt, to the consternation of the Malthuses and Clubs of Rome.

Sorry it took so long to respond - I was out of town for the weekend for a wedding.

AdkJacUpstateNY wrote:
Ona... I would love to hear more about your experience with geo. I am in Lake George, NY.

What town for you?
What are you paying per KWH?
What brand is your GEO?
Who installed?
Cost?
What parts of existing HVAC did they keep and what did they pull out?
Do you have domestic hot water as part of the GEO?
And any other interesting facts I may have left out.
Thanks
Bill

Oh and comfort...

Sound... fast moving air... on 24/7 when cold?
cool air coming from registers a bother?

To answer your questions:
We live in North Greenbush, NY (just oustide of Albany)
We pay anywhere from 11-14 cents per KWhr - I'm on a variable plan which has turned out to be cheaper than locking in with NYSEG
We have a Waterfurnace Envision 3 stage heat (includes elec strip) 2 stage cool
Choice Heating & Cooling Installed (he also installed my brother in laws 10 yrs ago)
The cost of the install was $38K, this included all new ductwork in an old home and removal of my oil hot water system.
I have nothing left of the old HVAC system - I actually sold the old boiler and radiators to a co-worker.

Regarding the air, I have not noticed the cold air but my installer, Joe (not the Joe on this forum), walked through the house with me for a while and we figured out the best places for the vents. I had wanted those vents that come up to the base of the wall and blow out towards the floor, he recommended I NOT do that because if it hit someones bare foot, it would feel cold. My vents come right up through the floor. The air does not feel fast to me, rather it is very subtle.

We used to keep the t-stat set at 58 and now we set it at 64. The two items that I don't love about the system is that forced air makes the house much more dry in the winter - I now have a humidifier in the bedroom. The other item is the recommendation that you should keep the t-stat at one temp - my husband prefers it to be colder at night, but without a setback, we cannot do that.

Overall, I am thrilled with my decision (yes, even the money spent). We were getting estimates for installed a central air system to the tune of $10 - $12K, and we were unhappy with the swing of oil prices. We were also unable to get natural gas. The home is much more comfortable and evenly heated.

Yes Dana1, it is difficult to be of Greek decent these days. But it looks like they need to make a lot of changes to fix their problems - I do hope they will.

One key question - do you have a manual J for heat load? This will determine the capacity of the geothermal system for your home in New Hampshire - and determines the price you'll pay for system and installation. It's possible your home is well insulated and air sealed (or should be if you're considering geothermal) and wouldn't need 105,000 net BTU/H. The cost for geo capacity is high. Have you considered DX? The COP in real world applications has been shown to be over 4. And we have data to support. Specifically, in one of our installations (6200 sq ft foamed) the client used less than 10,000 Kwh for heating, cooling and hot water from Feb 2009 through Feb. 2010. With fossil fuel he would have purchased over 2,200 gals of oil. You do the math. This is NOT TYPICAL - but we routinely see 4.0 COP. I've also seen very high COP in open water loop systems with ground water temperature in the 50's. Some geo contractors are really measuring system performance - rather than rely on ARI testing.

NOTE TO AdkJacUpstateNY - we're opening an office and shop in the Adirondacks this summer.

Paul Auerbach
Total Green Geothermal
www.TotalGreenUS.com

Paul... if you can install COP 4 for entire KWH load to do with HVAC then... let's talk... I would do installs.

I have asked a million times... what is the situation with drilling granite bedrock less than ten feet into the ground?

aj

And as to cost.... sounds like $40,000 for a typical home.

I just did an install... of two systems with zones... hotair propane/AC $10,000 per system complete.

GEO has some heavy upfront numbers GEO boys.

Adkjac ~ I'm curious, did your $10K propane system which cost $10K include all the duct work? 

I ask because I was not able to get an estimate for ductwork ALONE for less than $9K.  I'm not talking about estimates from Geo installers, I'm talking about estimates from traditional local HVAC contractors.

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 20 May 2010 06:22 PM


I have asked a million times... what is the situation with drilling granite bedrock less than ten feet into the ground?

I will answer very slowly and use big words


Drilling in granite is hard.

$7500 per system complete.... Goodman condensing furnaces no zoning

I went for 2 zones in each townhouse... upstairs and downstars.
That added $2500 per townhouse.

So... yes... price was for all... new construction.. and the ducting was not easy either.

I am happy with work except... the furnaces have hot sides... next time I will make sure the hot side
is faced to back of home (North side, bathrooms) the temp difference is 20 degrees!!!!!

I would think HVAC guys would know this... I shot my temp gun at the ducts... found this out and was livid.

aj

There excuse... not taa worry... all evens out when up to temp...

I say... bull... with night setback... I want the baths blasted with heat at morning turn up time for
the comfort all of us want at that time.

Next time... I will install them my way...

though now I am moving toward way high R values and tiny amounts of HVAC.

My idea is I could heat a home with just heating the tile in the bathrooms.

This would be my advice to you "geo is not for everyone". It is not a goodman box furnace, and it certainly is not a window unit ac. It is rarely done well by people who have not "done their time" with a established installer or spent a bundle on educational experiences to get good at it.
In regard to drilling granite, if you had spent five minutes with google you would have gotten all the answers you required. The equipment to drill with is expensive, the tooling is expensive, and it is never done by people who "have not done their time". A simple search here would have explained to you why playing the number game with anticipated cop is folly, as well as claims that one method of exchange is superior to another, open exchange vs. dx. They all have their place and the guy that has done his time will know which one is right for your project.
It should never be the burden of the installer or the advocate of geo to convince anyone of anything. With education they will make their own choice and sometimes it is not geo. The statement that it is all about price is only true on some levels. kia vs mitsubishi spider. these are two very different cars that will take you from place to place but with very different prices and very different applications and levels of comfort.
Good luck with your project, and if you find a way to drill hard rock for less than $5.00 a foot price will no longer be an issue for you in regard to anything.
Eric

I'm looking into GEO also. This topic has a lot of good info for someone like me. I'm buiding a new house in NJ. Presently 3000 sf living space, w heated garage and basement. Living space will be in the 4000sf range in the future. Regardless of the direction I go, Natural Gas or GEO my house will have radiant floor heating. What bothers me about the contractors i've spoken with (besides the cost) is their ways of looking at the project are completely different. One had a gas boiler as a back-up, one had forced hot air, one said he designs that so not back up is necessary, one basically I had to ask to leave because he made no sense.

With this degree of differences it is hard to find out what information is reliable and who I can trust. The prices have ranged from 70 to 100k with the duct work but in all I would have to dig the trenches and supply and install the radiant heat. I've been proceeding as though I'm not going to do the geo system but I keep coming back to it. I want to do something to reduce my energy bills.

I've even knock on the doors of random people near where I lived that I heard had it and recieved conflicting information. I find it very hard to get good reliable information about geo systems in my area. I welcome any information from the members of this forum.

snowgames... you are being snowed for sure...

I could insulate and build you a passive house that could be heated by

your family and two  warm blooded pets for less than 100 K extra!!!!!!!!!!!

GEO prices are stupid in some parts of the country....

And I blame the 30% tax credit for this....

"Your cost is only $70,000 with your tax credit... " complete greedy double marked up bullsh**T!!!