We have an Envision 5ton Waterfurnace installed by the previous owner about 3 years ago, with the installers unknown. The owner also installed the Intellizone system and has 3 zone dampers. We were noticing a lot of water gurgling and were having problems with cooling. Our local certified dealer is telling us one of the dampers is bad but that the owner did not properly register the warranty so we only get an incremented amount for any warranty work. This seems crazy to us! We are also told the 5ton unit may need 2 pumps and we only have one. We are told to wait and see how comfortable we are though after the damper is replaced to decide if we want to add the costly $$$ additional pump. The dealer says the system may not have been properly flushed and filled at install to purge the air out of the line and that this can be quite messy....just installed new carpet nearby!! Anyone else had issues with a passed along warranty, purging the system or anything like I am talking about? Thanks!

Posted By annj on 15 Jun 2010 01:30 PM

Our local certified dealer is telling us .... that the owner
did not properly register the warranty ...

Sounds extremely fishy, to me.  I believe it's illegal under US law 
(Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act) to make warranty coverage
contingent on "registration."

OTOH, if it's an "extended warranty," it might not be a true
warranty (under Magnuson-Moss), but a "service contract". 

annj,

We have read your comments and would be more than happy to offer our assistance. Please provide your model and serial numbers, so that we may look into your inquiry further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Thanks for the assistance. Our model number is NDV064A111NTR and the serial number is XC1356.

I'm a homeowner. A few thoughts:

WF may be able to tell you the name of the installer.

I wonder if WF normally gets the needed warranty information from the installer? We registered our warranty ourselves to be on the safe side.

Are WF warranties transferable?

Can a pump be added to the existing flow center? How costly would an additional pump be?

I was right next to our installer as they purged the air from our loop lines at installation with a "flush cart"*. Maybe a few drops on the floor. Wouldn't plastic drop cloths and some old towels/sheets adequately protect the floor if the techs are careful? *I was going to say "crash cart". That's what I would have needed if our system didn't work. :-)

annj,

Your unit, serial number XC1356, was purchased by Comfort Zone Improvements, with 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty that expires April 20, 2017. This warranty began at the time of shipment and provides the part at no charge and a labor allowance to the contractor to offset their labor charges. We would suggest you have your contractor contact our warranty staff to discuss any questions they may have regarding your warranty.

As for the gurgling noise, it is possible that this is caused by air in the loop. Loop pumps are water-cooled pumps. This air (gurgling noise) can cavitate around the pumps and not allow the water to flow through. This in turn may cause premature pump failure. We are unsure of why purging the loop would be messy. If done carefully, this should not be an issue. If there are concerns about a mess, we would suggest laying plastic down to catch any water that may drop on the floor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Thanks for the response. 
I understand that the warranty is transferable, but maybe I am missing something. 

The existing flow center does have room for another pump that we are told would run about $1400 installed.  We were then told to wait until the intellizone damper is installed ($800 with us paying $400) to see if that took care of the cooling issue.  If so, we could choose not to add the pump. 

We wonder if the size WF needs that pump then what issues would be choosing to not add it.

As for the gurgling, we were told the installer may not have purged it properly to begin with....or there could be a look we might not know about for 6 months up to 5 years!!  How does one know if their system is leaking?

geome,

Our warranties begin at the time of shipment. Once the warranty has been registered, it is adjusted to begin at the installation date. It is not uncommon for the warranty registration to be submitted by the contractor as a courtesy; however, we would suggest that the homeowner register their warranty to ensure that it has been done. The warranty is filed by serial number; therefore, any WaterFurnace dealer or HVAC contractor can submit a warranty claim, as long as the unit is still covered under warranty.

It is possible to add a pump to the existing flow center. We would suggest that the contractor do a pressure drop calculation to determine exactly many pumps are needed. Unfortunately, we are unable to comment on pricing, as this must go through a WaterFurnace dealer or HVAC contractor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

WF - thank you. To clarify, is it correct to say that the WF warranty remains in effect for the warranty period regardless of who currently owns the house the unit was installed in (provided other warranty provisions have not been violated)?

$1400? Installers, does this seem reasonable? I have no idea what is involved with adding a pump to an existing flow center. Please enlighten us.

annj, my 2 cents from a homeowner's perspective: Fix or replace (whichever is appropriate) the damper if it is defective and get the air out of the loop. While the tech is there, have them do the pressure drop calculation as WF suggests to see if it is within spec for your system. If you need a second pump, I would imagine it would be determined by calculations rather than comfort.

I would try to contact the original installer to see what they can do for you (for the damper, purging, and pump) since they installed the system. If they screwed up on pump size or pump quantity, I would ask them to foot the bill for it (or at least provide significant help on cost) since the job should have been quoted and installed with appropriate pumping capacity. I would let them know you are in contact with WF.

Edit:
Installers or WF: Would the air need to be purged to get a meaningful pressure calculation?  Would installing a second pump (if needed) require purging a second time?

Yes, thanks WF for your fast response.  We are waiting to get the damper replaced before making any other decisions.  Our contractor suggested we see if that works and then decide on the pump.  They say when they add a pump they will have to flush and fill the system then so we might as well see how well the damper helps first.

If there is air in the system, it needs to be purged or system components could be damaged. You're on record with WF now, so any damage as a result of not taking their advise would probably void the warranty on affected components. Why would you not want to take care of multiple problems at the same time and possibly save a few dollars on service calls in the process?

If there is a gurgling sound in the loop, you MUST get the loop flushed and all of the air eliminated. If you do not, you will shorten the life of the one circulating pump you do have and it will fail at the most inconvenient time, like 8:00 pm on Christmas Eve. So get that done no matter what. As a rule of thumb, not scientific, but what is usually found is that a single pump module will work on a system 3 tons or less. 3/5 ton units and larger generally require a dual pump module. What you will find is that the system will seem to run fine in cooling but keep locking out in the heating mode. You better have the local WF dealer check all of this out for you and pay him what he wants minus any warranty labor allowance. The second pump is not a warranted part. Once you have the system operating properly, total your expenses and contact the realtor who sold the house to you. Have them help you go back on the seller or the inspection warranty for recovery.
WF is an excellent company. They will be fair with you.They also have some authority with the installing contractor. Ask for their assistance here too.

I wonder why a single damper is costing $800 to replace. I like the 3 wire WaterFurnace / Belimo dampers, have them in my own home and just got 5 in for a current project.

Assuming the damper is reasonably easy to access, I'd be way ahead at $400 to replace one, much less $800.

As for the question of an extra pump it should take a geo tech able to fog a mirror just a few minutes to determine loop flow and temperature change across the unit to determine if an extra pump is needed. a 5 ton may well need a 2nd pump, but $1400 seems quite steep for that as well.

If there is audible gurgling in your loop it almost certainly needs to be purged. That's an hour or so with a flush cart. A flush cart essentially combines a hand truck, a pool pump and rain barrel with plumbing fittings appropriate for a geo flow center - not much magic there.

Are you in a really high cost location like NYC or SF?

It is a shame when the effort to spread geo systems gets torpedoed by extortionate pricing.

geome,

“WF - thank you. To clarify, is it correct to say that the WF warranty remains in effect for the warranty period regardless of who currently owns the house the unit was installed in (provided other warranty provisions have not been violated)?”

You are correct.

“Installers or WF: Would the air need to be purged to get a meaningful pressure calculation? Would installing a second pump (if needed) require purging a second time?”

Yes, the air needs to be purged from the loop to maintain proper operation. WaterFurnace flow centers have a 3-way valve, which allows the technician to close off the loop portion of the system. Therefore, changing or replacing a pump does not necessarily mean the loop needs to be purged when installing a second pump.

“You're on record with WF now, so any damage as a result of not taking their advise would probably void the warranty on affected components.”

We have found that most pump failures are caused by air in the loop. Please understand that we are providing suggestions based on our experience for the benefit of this customer. This information has not been relayed to our warranty department, as we see no reason to. We do not feel that annj is being negligent. On the contrary, this homeowner is trying to ensure that the system is properly maintained.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Posted By WF_Inc. on 16 Jun 2010 09:48 AM
We do not feel that annj is being negligent. On the contrary, this homeowner is trying to ensure that the system is properly maintained.

I received a different impression from "We are waiting to get the damper replaced before making any other decisions."  However, it is possible that I am jumping the gun a little.  I hate to see people do themselves more harm than good by not taking good advise regarding loop purging from 4 independent people (including WF).  Guess we can only lead a horse to water... 

Edit: Although I do agree that posting questions here is a step in the right direction. 

Thanks geome for your kind input. We are not disregarding that the loop needs to have the air purged from it. We are simply following our certified dealer's suggestion to see how the replacement of the damper helps first. We were told that it is easier to add an extra pump and purge at the same time so have decided to see how the damper works before deciding on the pump. Regardless we will have the loop purged. We were also told it would take longer to get the pump in than the damper so the decision seemed logical.

Posted By WF_Inc. on 15 Jun 2010 04:15 PM
geome,

Our warranties begin at the time of shipment. Once the warranty has been registered, it is adjusted to begin at the installation date.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I am really glad to read this!!!  I am going to need to make sure that my warranty is registered once my install is done.

annj, Unfortunately, it seems to be a catch 22. The loop needs to be purged to check to see if a second pump is needed. Ideally, if the installer has a pump on hand at the time of purging and pressure check, and the test warrants a second pump, then both (pressure check and pump) could be done at the same time if needed. I have your best interest at heart and don't want you to get charged more money for something avoidable (like multiple service trips). Please let us know how you make out, and if the original installer is able to help you (if you decide to call them.)

It still seems strange to me that a certified dealer isn't stressing that the loop must be properly purged, or that they think the purging process is messy. You may want to consider having someone else come out, in light of this and engineer's comments, but it's up to you. All certified installers are not created equal, and they set their own prices.

"It still seems strange to me that a certified dealer isn't stressing that the loop must be properly purged, or that they think the purging process is messy."

Flush systems are messy and heavy.
We have ways to mitigate most of the mess, but you are dealing with hoses a resevoir and a pump filled with brine.
Depending on flush system access to mechanical room and finish of areas around it PITA factor can go very high (i.e. mechanical room in a closet off hallway carpeted in white).
That anyone would suggest the flushing is simple and clean is folly.
Joe

Perhaps flush carts are not all created equally? I only observed purging of our installation, but stood right next to the cart as it was operating with only a few drops on the floor. I remember it was heavy. :-)

Always a good idea to verify the installer has liability insurance and has you listed on a certificate of insurance or equivalent.