My plans to add A/C has blossomed. First it was why not add a heat pump as I have electric baseboard and maybe pay for the extra cost by pumping the heat as opposed to resistance heat.  Because I have no duct work, it immediately raised my costs.  Because of the layout, not much wall space continuous between floors, I thought of a high velocity handler in the attic and I could run ducts through 2nd floor walls into 1st floor ceilings.
As I learned more, geothermal seemed a possibility. I have an unused in decades well near the house.  Hoping for a huge well as I am within a hundred feet over the nearby Hudson River. My home is on the hill up from the river.
Trying to get a well driller seems like playing the lottery so I don't have more info. But it is not a deal breaker if the well is useless for this purpose.

So I have a 30 year old 2 story center hall colonial with insulated glass windows, R 15 walls and r 49 attic. Also a full finished wall basement that is not heated. This has given me heating bills of $2000 last year at appr. 14 c kwh. But I don't have all the baseboards turned on. The thermostat is set to 68 degrees.  I have over 1/2 acre but with the hill, a ground loop doesn't fit.  I am located just outside of Albany, NY
So I have had some quotes and 2 were for a vertical closed loop. The 3rd was for an open loop but unless I can return the water to the ground, it is not an option. I have been quoted  for 3 -4 ton units.  I think I'd have the thermostats at 72 degrees for the A/C, not sure what would be ideal as I am more of a fresh air kinda person.  But my better half has allergies and more sensitive to heat and cold and I want to make them comfortable. So I will need a good filter. Anything where I am going to smell the ozone is out of the question as I am one of those that smells it.
I am very handy and can do a lot of the work myself. I am home full time for the summer so have plenty of time to do the work.

 So can you all help me with a system that isn't overly expensive and will have a < 7 year payback? I see the value in something that will pay for itself or make it far more comfortable but I may have to live with less than perfect.

I will need to start this project soon. Hopefully I don't end up with a goodman condenser and a spacepac just giving me A/C

VB,
High velocity systems derate capacity and efficiency.
They have there place, but in my opinion are more for installer convenience than homeowner benefit.
Have at least 3 designers (geo if that's the direction you wish to head) and let us know what they propose.
Cliffs notes please. Throw in a heat loss calc.
From there we can offer our thoughts on design. Question here is a little broad....
Good Luck,
J

Joe, thanks for getting back to me. I don't have a manual j for my house. If anyone knows an online one I can use, I'll do it. I left the statement open hoping it would illicit responses that I could reply to but that hasn't happen yet.
Met with a well driller and it looks like a closed loop vertical bore is my best bet. So which equipment technically is best? Waterfurnace top of the line or a Climatemaster/carrier/bryant ( I think they are all the same box)? I know the installer is more important but I need to put merit to everything. What if the installer closes up shop? Can I buy the part to fix myself? I have installed an repaired several gas furnaces and a couple oil boilers so I know if need be, I can.
I have resigned myself to boxing out my hallway to run a plenum from the basement to the attic in the center of the house. The attic is trusses so open to the atmosphere. Are any of you guys duct people? I have lots of questions on optimizing installation. right now I have the free time to spend the extra hours to mimic a new construction install over a retrofit.

Putting GEO and Ducts in an existing home and DIYing?

It would be better to sell that home and build new with superinsulation, less square feet and then think about GEO and ductwork.

And if the load drops lots, put in a Daikin system... many to pick from.

Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 24 Jun 2010 09:52 AM
It would be better to sell that home and build new ...

Yep. And while you're at it, sell the kids and adopt better-behaved,
smarter ones -- in a tax-free school district. This could also be a
perfect opportunity to quit your job, dump the wife, and relocate ...

...to Shangri-La,

Looby smart to you is to do this project?

Love to see your next post... can't wait

I diy'd  my leaky farm house circa turn of the century.  I have never been happier!

Waterpirate ... good post... Maybe you can help this gentleman with his ideas for GEO.

My point is... value also. Today we have Daikin systems that would install possibly for much less money... (good system for less = value)

GEO might be an option... but a much bigger challenge don't you all think? May be of value... I just tend to disagree now that there are the Daikin choices for less cost.

Energy pyramid... says.... R-15 walls which may equal R-5ish whole R value among other areas may be first in line as to where to get the best value prior to spending $20-50,000 on GEO. He has to like others have said get contractors in there to advise and cost out.

Energy pyramid:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...id%204.jpg

Waterpirate, I'd like to hear more about the system you installed. I am not going to buy part and roll my own. To make this more affordable, I expect I will do part of it. Whether it is digging trenches, opening and closing walls, running electrical or whatever.

Electrical can be a good place for sweat equity (if knowledgeable enough). Many of us know what you need but don't happen to be licensed electricians. Carpentry/drywall another good one.
Trenches are not a very expensive part of the job. Ground loops are.
J

Volleyball,

  I am a proffesional driller and nailed the vertical loops myself, game over.  However I paid for two manual j's, got someone to run the ductwork, and do the start-up.  I purchased  two units on the gray market, one package and one split.  I set them both.  The package in the crawl space including cutting  bigger access in block foundation so it and the compressor section for 2nd story split would fit.  I set the air handler for the split in the attic.  I opened up the wet wall from the crawl to the attic and I and Mrs. pirate fished the line set and control wires up through/ see almost divorce!  I did all the wiring from the panel to the disconnect at all three locations.  If you find the right contractor to work with and you and or your circle of freinds are handy there is a lot of room for "sweat equity in a project"
  It is our company's motto to never say no.  Sometimes projects require more money, other times they require more patience and coaching to able bodied DIY.  Either way there is always a solution!

You can PM or email me, we are in Buffalo NY, about 4 hours away from Albany. We are happy to help and worked many times with the homeowners who want to do much themselves. We would be happy to help with the calcs, design, and some of the things a DIY would not bee able to do.

Each contractor has their strength and weaknesses. They also have staff that might be busy or idle. This effects how much they are willing to leave to the homeowner. creating the chase from attic to basement quickly came to one guys mind. another said removing drywall, electrical and plumbing.
Everyone I've talked too has been happy with me doing the trench. With a vertical loop near the house, such a small job is not worth bringing in equipment. but I have stumps to dig up, footings holes for an addition and bush relocations as well as roadside ditch repairs that I will get my moneys worth renting. BTW, I am concurrently doing a 700sf basement addition with a waterproof deck above.

I am now between a couple of dealers. One says manual J says 3.5T so go with 4 ton as the two stage and two speed will give me more heat and it won't be too much A/C so I won't have short cycle. The others says 3T is fine. And add an aux heat. I am looking top of the line models for all systems.
I do plan on tightening the house with more foam board under new siding over the next few years.
Both plans are 5/4 pipes with different lengths depending on tonnage. Would I be safer doing 2 300' wells vs 1 450' well. Everyone seems to think the 450' would be sufficient.
Do you guys add any equipment specific surge protectors? if so what kind?
And lastly, does anyone run a humidifier for winter? They don't seem popular here.

Posted By Volleyball on 30 Jun 2010 12:23 PM
I am now between a couple of dealers. One says manual J says 3.5T so go with 4 ton as the two stage and two speed will give me more heat and it won't be too much A/C so I won't have short cycle. The others says 3T is fine. And add an aux heat. I am looking top of the line models for all systems.
I do plan on tightening the house with more foam board under new siding over the next few years.
Both plans are 5/4 pipes with different lengths depending on tonnage. Would I be safer doing 2 300' wells vs 1 450' well. Everyone seems to think the 450' would be sufficient.
Do you guys add any equipment specific surge protectors? if so what kind?
And lastly, does anyone run a humidifier for winter? They don't seem popular here.

My geo installer does plan to install a humidifier with the geo system.  I have one on my existing system, which he said he could install on the new system (although I made the decision to have him install a newer model with a more preferred method of operation).

EDIT: I'm in S.E. PA.

Dana1 has previously mentioned that a house may be able to be sufficiently sealed to retain sufficient humidity for comfort during the winter. I plan to seal instead of adding a humidifier.

Posted By Volleyball on 30 Jun 2010 12:23 PM
I am now between a couple of dealers. One says manual J says 3.5T so go with 4 ton as the two stage and two speed will give me more heat and it won't be too much A/C so I won't have short cycle. The others says 3T is fine. And add an aux heat. I am looking top of the line models for all systems.
I do plan on tightening the house with more foam board under new siding over the next few years.
Both plans are 5/4 pipes with different lengths depending on tonnage. Would I be safer doing 2 300' wells vs 1 450' well. Everyone seems to think the 450' would be sufficient.
Do you guys add any equipment specific surge protectors? if so what kind?
And lastly, does anyone run a humidifier for winter? They don't seem popular here.

Usually for a 3 ton system we have 400' of 1.25" vertical pipe supporting it, or 450' of 0.75" pipe. That is in the Buffalo, NY area, Albany has similar weather data, but I am not sure if the geology is similar. You being on the hill indicates that you have rock below you..... An if your electric heat bill with baseboard is indeed only $2000 you heatloss should be only 18-20KBTU/h. So based on this a 4 ton system would be way oversized.

I am on clay over bedrock. I believe granite, You can see the outcropping as there are vertical drop offs behind and in front of my house. The bedrock is expected to be pretty wet. I indeed did not spend more than $2k on heat via the electric baseboard. My body is the only supplemental heat. I am one of those that radiates heat most of the time. I actually had not calculated in for a few years and was surprised it was that much.
I have an energy audit friday so we will see how that goes. It should substantiate my claims.
so a 2 stage with ecm blower would short cycle too much. I was told that it would just stay on the 1st stage most of the time and reduce the chance the supplemental heat would come on.
I heard the humidifiers were special for geothermal so you probably could not use an old one. I guess I will do without. Can always add myself.
The well drilling is going to mess up my lawn so I want to make sure it is only once. A new sidewalk will be going in as well as trees as soon as they are done. A few extra feet for insurance.

Similar to the ground I'm over. The thermal conductivity of hard rock like granite is very high, however the water movement through it is often very low, so it can be tricky.
If, as you say, you DO have water moving in there, you've got the best of both worlds, but I'm a little dubious about water movement through granite.

That said, if the ground does NOT have much water movement, you have to be very careful about loop sizing and grouting since you'll be dependent upon the thermal conductivity of the rock to carry the heat. In my loop field, I both measured and modeled the thermal behavior and found that with short loops (100'/ton), the ground cooled off quite quickly during the winter. Loop recovery time (the time the loop is NOT extracting heat form the ground) is extremely important, because it is that time that give the ground an opportunity to warm up again. Put another way, the thermal conductivity of hard rock, in the absence of water, is such that you need considerable loop length in order to conduct IN as much heat as your extracting OUT from the loops. The more loop you have, the longer you can run the system before it has to turn off to allow the temperature of the rock to recover. Based on the measurements and models, my system would require closer to 175'-200' of well/ton in order to satisfy my heating needs for winter without drawing down the temperature of the loop field below freezing. Your specifics will vary, of course.

I mention these things because it is critical, when putting loops in rock with little water movment, that your installer doesn't undersize the loop field. This type of installation is unforgiving.