So now that I have my quote for a GSHP install (dual stage Climatemaster, heat pump hot water (Rheem), DSH, etc) I want to get my WelServer ordered. Here is what I see as the needed sensors 1) DSH In 2) DSH Out 3) Ground Loop In 4) Ground Loop Out 5) Supply Temp (air) 6) Return Temp (air) 7) Outside Air Temp Then either setup current monitoring (expensive) or I see most people are just monitoring Stage 1, 2, Aux Heat. Are they just using current sensing coils on the power lines for Stage 1, 2 and Aux heat? Should I rather do a current sensing setup to get real current flow? The only thing that is going to be hard to monitor is the consumption of the Rheem heat pump water heater (well, unless there is a way to put current sensors on heat pump portion separate from hot and bottom 4.5kw coils OR if I am going to be able to leave it on "Eco" aka heat pump only settings. Thoughts on setup? Proper ratio of plastic vs metal sensors for temp? I see at least 4 metal (dsh in out/g loop in out) and 3 plastic (supply temp, return temp and outside temp. Sound about right?

The plastic sensor are not very good when exposed to moisture. So I use the plastic sensors for indoor temperature only, the rest is done with the stainless steel tip sensors. I use the wire combo module all the time to monitor the call for 1st, 2nd and 3rd stage of heat. Works like a charm. I would also recommend stainless steel sensors for the dsh (buffer?) tank and the Rheem.
Using a heat transfer compound and mounting them correctly is critical. Make sure you put them under insulation. I would go with current sensor for the Rheem (on/off). This way you should get the most for the money. Real flow is more complex, you can measure the amps when running and calculate a number close the the real flow.

Posted By cschmelz on 11 Oct 2010 12:45 AM
So now that I have my quote for a GSHP install (dual stage Climatemaster, heat pump hot water (Rheem), DSH, etc) I want to get my WelServer ordered. Here is what I see as the needed sensors 1) DSH In 2) DSH Out 3) Ground Loop In 4) Ground Loop Out 5) Supply Temp (air) 6) Return Temp (air) 7) Outside Air Temp Then either setup current monitoring (expensive) or I see most people are just monitoring Stage 1, 2, Aux Heat. Are they just using current sensing coils on the power lines for Stage 1, 2 and Aux heat? Should I rather do a current sensing setup to get real current flow? The only thing that is going to be hard to monitor is the consumption of the Rheem heat pump water heater (well, unless there is a way to put current sensors on heat pump portion separate from hot and bottom 4.5kw coils OR if I am going to be able to leave it on "Eco" aka heat pump only settings. Thoughts on setup? Proper ratio of plastic vs metal sensors for temp? I see at least 4 metal (dsh in out/g loop in out) and 3 plastic (supply temp, return temp and outside temp. ...

I think you're on the right track.  And docjenser's comments will steer you correctly.

I too have a WEL ( http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 ) and have a good amount of experience with it.  I've looked for less expensive alternatives for measuring electrical power and energy, but, have yet to find something significantly less expensive that the Continental Controls' offered WattNodes ( http://www.ccontrolsys.com/products/pulse_output.html ), on a per circuit cost basis.  Combined with resolution, accuracy and reliability subjects, I still think these units are still the best for the buck.  At $198 + $18 (option) + $31/toroid, I know, not inexpensive.

What has improved a lot is now you can get 3 circuit monitoring for the price of one unit (with P3 option).

I have 3 of the old units (one for whole house service, one for both HVAC units combined, and one for pool pumps).  I have a new unit, using 2 of the channels, for my solar PV system.

If I had it to do again now, I'd have each of my 2 GSHP units on a channel of a new version WattNode, giving me opportunity to separately measure each unit's power consumption, which then makes it much easier to compute EER and COP.

To take advantage of the WEL's sample and hold capability (really cleans up charts nicely because you're only looking at operational data), you'll need some way to know when your unit is on.  Mine has an Accessory relay output that I connected to my WEL.  Others use the current sensing switch offered by the WEL.

The WEL's "combo unit" works great for monitoring tstat signals, or for that matter, the existence or not of a 24 VAC signal.

Take a look at my diagram and charts to get ideas for what you can do, along with the examples offered of other WEL users, at http://www.welserver.com/index.htm .

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Bill

Bill,
With the WattNodes as I read it I can monitor 3 120VAC circuits but only 1 240VAC circuit correct? I guess it DOES make more sense to order a WattNode with the P3 given my install is new....Provided all the circuits (except the emergency heat, which I can probably monitor with the current taps, right?) are 120VAC...That will get me full access to 1) Heat pump power use 2) heat pump water heater power use and 3) something else---probably what, heat pump loop pump draw??

Posted By cschmelz on 19 Oct 2010 12:42 PM 
With the WattNodes ... I can monitor 3 120VAC circuits but only 1 240VAC circuit ... correct?
 
I guess it DOES make more sense to order a WattNode with the P3 given my install is new....Provided all the circuits (except the emergency heat, which I can probably monitor with the current taps, right?) are 120VAC...That will get me full access to 1) Heat pump power use 2) heat pump water heater power use and 3) something else---probably what, heat pump loop pump draw??

Not correct.  You can independently measure 3 240 VAC circuits with one (P3 Option WattNode) just like you would 3 120 VAC circuits.  The limitation here, though, is that the 3 240 VAC circuits must be connected to stuff that doesn't require a neutral.

For example, it will work reasonably well, but not perfectly, for many electric ovens and dryers, if only the heating elements run from 240 VAC and the control electronics runs from 120 VAC.  For an electric water heater it would work very well.  For a conventional A/C unit, it probably wouldn't work well due to the blower fan motor running on 120 VAC.

For whole house monitoring, like what you'd accomplish with a TED unit, a P3 WattNode option won't work, because a neutral is present.

If you have a geo unit + emergency heat, this is probably 2 240 VAC circuits, with or without a neutral.  If it were me, I'd use a non-P3 option WattNode, put the load wires for both the geo unit and the emergency heat modules through each toroid, and thus measure the total consumed with just one WattNode.

Actually, if it were me, and I knew neither the geo unit nor the aux heat module used a neutral, I'd probably order a P3 Option WattNode, measure the geo unit with one channel / toroid, measure the aux heat module with another channel / toroid, then add the two together using WEL arithmetic capability.  This technique allows for slightly greater accuracy (than putting two wires through a toroid) and allows for standardization on purchase of Option P3 WattNodes.

Best regards,

Bill

Now I'm more confused.... So if I want to monitor the Climatemaster geothermal heat pump, aux heat AND my heat pump water heater what Wattnode do I use?!? SOOOO confused!

I would call Continental Controls' customer support.  They'll ask you specific questions about your equipment, and will figure it out.

Best regards,

Bill

Well I got my initial setup of the WELSERVER running
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0413/

Quick question, I haven't properly thermally bonded the temp probes to the pipes yet, instead I just got a quick and dirty insulated/wire tie setup running which works for now.

How do I bond to PEX? Can I use thermal epoxy on PEX without doing harm (since my DSH/DHW piping is PEX). Also, do most bond the loop in/out temp sensors to the HDPE piping or to the brass where it enters the HP?

Brass is better, but it is even more important to insulate the sensor with the pipes to avoid air temperature in your utility room to influence the sensed water temperatures. I have used the following product http://www.arcticsilver.com/# with 2 plastic ties, it does work as good as it gets. You can actually measure the temperature directly in the p/t ports, and then calibrate the temperature probes in the welserver setup menu.

Which product Doc? They have several..I assume you are using the base arctic silver compound not adhesive?

I used the aluminum silver ones, for our ourpose they all do the same job. I like the epoxy too, since they nicely attach the probe and keep it in place, obviously something you do not want if you plan to switch the sensor location.

Data produced by the WEL is fascinating!

I have my WELServer up and running and (temporarily for now) have a TED5000 tacked onto the heat pump circuit.
http://www.welserver.com/WEL0413/

So it APPEARS power consumption (Climatemaster 27/ unit 064/5 ton) is about 4kw which is over spec at stage 1 (book appears to be about 2900watts, but my heat pump circuit has the Accuclean (few watts), circulator pumps (Grundfos 2 pump unit for approx 500 watts) plus whatever the power consumption of the DSH circulator pump is (what, another 100 watts?) so I think it is doing pretty well.

Question though, assuming I have decent contact with the ground loop (arctic silver is still coming, but the sensors are on metal and well insulated) isn't a 3 degree drop kind of low in stage 1?

Any other comments on the data would be appreciated. Thanks

I looked at your charts (WEL0413).  You're making good progress.  One thing you might want to consider is using the WEL's sample and hold function such that when your heat pump is not running your temperature(s) stay at the last known point when the HP was running.  It will make interpretation of your charts easier.

Here's some help, hopefully on wiring of sensors:

In my opinion, there are 5 key items to ensure accurate temperature reading of a fluid in a pipe using the 1-wire technology temperature sensors:

1. Attach sensor to a metal portion or fitting of the pipe.

2. Firm mechanical attachment of the sensor to the pipe (I use zip ties).

3. Thermal grease between sensor and pipe.

4. Sensor wires wrapped around pipe a few times.

5. Sensor and wrapped wires are heavily insulated from the environmnet.

I used to use Arctic Silver too.  But, I saw no performance improvement versus the combination of mechanical fastening and thermal grease.  And Arctic Silver has disadvantages (expensive, has to be mixed due to being an epoxy).  A sensor attachment for me nowadays is a 30 sec. effort - a little bit of grease plus a zip tie.

The first item is not a fundamental item.  Sensors will work just as well on plastic pipe (provided you do the 5th item above).  The 2 biggest challenges putting sensors on plastic pipe are: (1) there's a pretty significant time lag between fluid temp change and sensor measured temp change: (2) If the fluid temperature variation is erratic then it becomes difficult for the sensor to keep pace with the continually changing fluid temperature.

I have one sensor on plastic pipe and it works fine.  It's on a swimming pool pipe and it's heavily insulated.  Since the pool temperature doesn't change erratically, the sensor keeps pace nicely with the fluid temperature.

Hope this helps.  I'm at WEL0043 if you want to look at examples for geothermal heating and cooling.

Best regards,

Bill

Not sure how this might relate to 1-wire sensors, but I have found that a bit of folded aluminum foil wrapped around a temperature probe, taped flat around the pipe / tube of interest and then well-insulated from ambient air works well. I have this setup on my water heating system and measured water temperature coincides quite well with reading from foil folded and insulated probe.

Posted By engineer on 19 Nov 2010 10:57 PM
Not sure how this might relate to 1-wire sensors, but I have found that a bit of folded aluminum foil wrapped around a temperature probe, taped flat around the pipe / tube of interest and then well-insulated from ambient air works well. I have this setup on my water heating system and measured water temperature coincides quite well with reading from foil folded and insulated probe.

I did my swimming pool temp sensor this way; in my case I used adhesive-backed foil tape commonly used for heating cooling ductwork insulation wrap.  I believe it further couples the temp sensor to the plastic pipe.

Best regards,

Bill

As far as the Watt-Node setup. I'd like to monitor both power use of my 230v water pump AND my 230v heat pump water heater (water heater mostly just because I'm really curious as to how it's efficiency really works out....)

It would seem the easiest way to do this is with 2 separate Watt-Nodes since the P3 option working with these loads is very dependent on not using neutrals, etc and makes more sense for an extra $100 or so to just get 2 regular units)

What current sensing torroids are people using? Makes sense to get the non-split torroids and just remove the wires from the circuit breaker, thread and replace to get better accuracy. (I was thinking the nice round 0.45" ones for these taps)

Also, I don't really understand HOW I could use a P3 watt node to do this (as some have suggested, minus neutral)...The savings is relatively small versus the assurance I'm collecting good data

Posted By cschmelz on 20 Nov 2010 12:44 PM
... I'd like to monitor both power use of my 230v water pump AND my 230v heat pump water heater ...

... What current sensing torroids are people using? Makes sense to get the non-split torroids and just remove the wires from the circuit breaker, thread and replace to get better accuracy.

A WattNode costs about $220, including the 300 Hz option needed by the WEL, and/or any other options (i.e., PV if desired for solar setups, or P3 if desired to have 3 dedicated circuits capacity).  So it's a nontrivial subject as to how many to purchase.

My recommendation?  Just buy one and put it on your service entrance to your circuit breaker panel box.  Then set up a WEL chart that shows power readings every minute or every 2 minutes.  You'll be surprised how much you will learn just from this simple set up.  And you'll be surprised the number of consumption reduction actions you'll embark on from your learnings.

As I said, it's expensive to start purchasing WattNodes for a circuit-by-circuit monitoring effort.  It's easy enough to see when a 230 water pump turns on just from the whole house monitor.  Same for a 230 V heat pump water heater.

See for example the black line on this chart: http://www.welserver.com/cgi-bin/pl...rPower.gif .

After you've worked with whole house data for a while, you may still decide you want to invest into a more granular view of your power.  If so, then you'll need more WattNodes.

Whether or not your 230 V water pump and/or heat pump water heater have a neutral wire hook up is a pretty important subject from a how many WattNodes do you need point of view.  If no neutrals are used, yes, with the P3 option, you can separately measure the power for the 230 V water pump and the heat pump water heater (and have one channel left for something else).  Otherwise, you'll need to purchase 2 WattNodes, one for water pump and one for the water heater.

WRT current transformers: the non-split ones are more accurate, just less convenient.

You can call Continental Control's customer support, and they'll figure exactly what you need.  They're very helpful.

Best regards,

Bill

Good point on the Wattnode...

I currently have a TED5000 I got cheap (used) on the amazon marketplace hooked up to the heat pump, so I have good data on it (4kw on stage 1 (includes pumps) and 5.5kw on stage 2, stage 3 disabled at breakers)

Once I get the cheap $85 thermostat box from Welserver, I will have clear data on power use at the heat pump (now that i KNOW stage 1 is 4kw and stage 2 is 5.5kw) so it makes sense to move the Ted5000 to the main input... one issue is that I do need a second MTU to monitor whole house usage as the heat pump and most of the house is on the main box but I have an adjacent second box that has the hot tub, 20kw of heat strips and the HPWH...

Perhaps I will just go that route, get the second MTU and wait and see if I really feel the need for a P3 or non-P3 Wattnode later..

What is the best program you would recommend to make the image file for the WEL page in? Is there something out there that can easily do piping runs and system components?