Looking for some thoughts / opinions w/ re: to heating a home in the eastern, PA area... I currently have a <2 year old new home (pulte) that is connected to site-stored propane tank for heat/HW/cooking... the propane bills are killing me in the winter, with total cost ~ $5~6K and this includes setbacks, and never bumping up the temps over 68 deg.

Looking for options on how to get plenty of heat, and do it easily, financailly responsibly, and cosmetically responsibly (my wife's input).

Considering a pellet FURNACE option... duct a Harman 100KBtu pellt furnace (PF100) in parallell to the 64KBtu gas furnace, set up a 1.5-ton hopper, and let it cook pellets and heat the house.  My install costs are likely ~8.5K, and the Govt gives back 1.5K in tax credit.  would burn thru about 5~6 tons of pellets at $200 per ton.  Seems like a good option, but the storage, handling, disposal of pellets and ash is a minor drawback.

Also thinking GEO.  with hi higher install Tag ($35K), but also more incentives to do so, I think my total out-of-pocket-after-rebate is about $20K.  I would be much happier with not having to hump aroud pellets, and I don't have to deal with the "parallel" ducting, as the unit can provide both heating and cooling, like my current Lennox unit does today.  Ergo - simpler installation w/regard to how it is hooked into the house.  BUt I don't plan to "save" much on my cooling.  It's not very expensive now.  My bigger concern is really the additional Electric cost to power the Geo system, especially since in 2011 our local power company (PECO) is deregulating, and I expect electric to jump 30% or so.

Anybody out there been through a similar thought process?  Any ideas or help is much appreciated!

1. How many sq. ft. is the home? I would and did start with a good analysis of what I have. I had a blower door test and thermal imaging done on my home to see all the convective losses. Just some insulation and caulking in key places can go a long way to reducing your overall heat loss. The payback here, if you don't go overboard, can be 1 yr. Out of this I got a rough heat loss number also. It would be good to get a heat loss/load calculation done also. 2. I would contact the utility or public utility commission in your state and find out what rate changes are possible and historical rates. 3. I'm am not sure about PA but in New England pellet rates rise with fossil fuels due to the utilities burning wood when oil prices rise. The demand changes. Electric can be more stable on rates. 4. Most people just want to set a thermostat instead of hauling wood/pellets/coal. I did all of these for a few years. Geo makes the most sense to me, but I am partial now. With a little more homework, I think your answer will appear for you. Either way is better than propane on your wallet. 5. How many years do you plan to stay in the house to get the payback and some benefit from these changes? Don't forget that Geo probably makes your house worth more in the future. I'm not sure about pellets.

Thanks GonGeo - The overal home is about 3800 sqft, but with 3 heat/cool zones. the biggest of the 3 is my mainliving area (LR/DR/KiT/Foyer, etc) and basement. This is the one I am likely converting to Geo or pellet right away. The other 2 are minimally used (1 for bedrooms and one for a sunroom/playroom area). Given its a new home, I always thought I didn't have to do a lot of caulking or sealing, but to your point this is probably a good exercise to go trhu regardless. we have a Two-story Family room (with two-sotry windows) and I think a lot of this extra window surface area is part of my issue. I will contact PECO (my electric utilty) to see what they can tell me about rates. And to the last question I am in this house for 10~20 years now... 2 little kids, 1 on the way, great neighborhood, etc, etc, I'm sure this is where we'll be for a while. Thanks for the suggestions... do you really think that Geo will add resale value to the house in 15 years?

A pellet stove would be a great backup for Geo. You could downsize both and only use it on the cold days.

Wow, 5-6 K in propane per year, man that sucks.

Now for some questions. Some I answered myself from your last post. Square footage of the house=3800 ft^2 Zip code? I looked up eastern PA (~5500 hdd per year).
Number of people living in the house =4. Long showers?
Do you own your propane tank or rent it from the gas company? How are you charged for propane? Ie is it a set margin over pipeline cost?

At least where I live, the cost per gallon varies radically depending on who owns the tank. My parents just paid 3.57$ per gallon for propane. They only use it for cooking so it is a 50 gallon tank they don’t own. I just got a yearly fill up in a 500 gallon tank I own for 1.89$ You are likely closer then I am to a propane terminal so SHOULD be paying around 1.85$ per gallon if you own your tank.

However the average retail cost for east coast propane is around 2.81$ per gallon, 1.30$ gallon wholesale. Regardless of what other options you use, try negotiating with the propane company to lower your rate. Price shop around if you own the tank.

IF we assume that you are paying 2.60$ gallon,(if you are buying 5000$ per year in propane you should be below the east coast average) this equates to 1900-2300 gallons of propane per year. That is a lot. Just to put it in perspective, I have ~2000 ft^2 of conditioned space and I burn ~190 gallons of propane per year (heat, hot water, cooking). You have double the square footage, 4 times the number of occupants though.

An energy audit is your first step.  
You need understand where you are using that much fuel and how to reduce demand for energy. This will be important no matter what energy source you are using. I am guessing a systematic look at the house will reveal a number of things that can be improved without incurring large costs.   A good energy auditor with a blower door  is expensive but worth it.   


The following are very rough approximations.
2000 gallons * 93000 btu/gallon = 190 million btu’s per year total consumed.
IF you assume 4 people, (soon to be 5) DHW 4 people*30 gallons per day * (120-50 temperature delta of incoming water) *8 btu/gallon/degF*365 days= 24 million btu’s per year for hot water /0.6 typical gas  water heater efficiency = 40 million btu’s per year for hot water corrected for efficiency. 40 million btu’s /93000 btu gallon = 430 gallons of propane.
This leaves 150 million btu’s for space heating. Assume 80% efficiency of the furnace and you are talking about 120 million btus delivered.

If you used electrical resistance heat that would be 35,15kwh per year at 0.153$kwh this is 5,400$ per year. If it goes up 20% as projected this would be 6500$ per year.  IF you had a geothermal system, with a cop of 3, that would be 11,719 kwh per year in heat. This would be1800- 2200$ per year total or ~3000$ year savings if the geothermal system could provide all the hot water also.
20,000$upfront costs/ 3000$ yearly savings = 6.6 year pay off without figuring interest about 8 years at 5% interest.
 
Pellets are around 13-15 million btu/ton and most stoves run ~70% efficient so 120million btu’s/ (15*0.7)= 11 tons of pellets per year. That is a lot of pellets. At 200$ per ton that is 2200$ in pellets and you still have 430 gallons of propane to buy at 2.60$ gallon =1100$ Some savings 5000$-3300 = 1700$ per year over current situation so 8500$/1700$= 5 year pay off or 6 with interest figured.

Food for thought
Eric Anderson

nice summary with clearly stated assumptions.  One comment...  I noticed yesterday looking at all different kinds of pellet stoves (some of which could nicely heat domestic water by the way), many seemed to allow direct vent installation, and the ones that meet the energy tax credit were listed with efficiencies between 90 and 95%.

Posted By ericghall on 14 Oct 2010 03:16 AM
My bigger concern is really the additional Electric cost to power the Geo system,
especially since in 2011 our local power company (PECO) is deregulating, and I
expect electric to jump 30% or so.

Be aware that with geo you'll qualify for PECO's "residental heating" rates --
currently, about $0.07/kWh during heating season (October 1 thru May 31)
after the first 600 kWh/month. We used nearly 600 kWh/month before geo,
so most of our electricity for heating comes at less than half price. Even after
deregulation, geo BTUs will be far less expensive than propane or heating oil.

Interesting thread, as I am thinking about combining a Geo with a pellet stove (although on a much smaller scale than you are considering). I am in the midst of an overly long process of getting a Geo installed and will likely add a pellet stove to a sunroom. My thought on the pellet stove is that it will put some extra heat into the sunroom (equals comfortable and happy wife) and as an added benefit it will supplement the Geo on really cold days. From my Geo design, I shouldn't need much extra heat as my system is designed to handle somewhere in excess of 95% of my heating needs (before third stage).

For us, the ability of the pellet stove to supplement the Geo is really an added benefit and not the reason we are getting it. My wife has wanted a fireplace for years and this was a compromise we decided upon when considering the additional cost of a fireplace, how inefficient they are, messing with storing and carrying wood (and bugs), etc.

A couple things to consider. I believe that if you advise PECO that you are using electric to heat your house (ie Geo) that they will cut your rate in half after a certain amount of usuage per month. EDIT - LOOBY's post has more info, above.

Also, I think you might be a bit low on the $200 per ton price for pellets, unless there is a way for your to purchase pellets in bulk (not in 40 or 50 lb bags). You might be able to get pellets that low, but most are going to be closer to the $225 to $250 range. HD and Lowes had early season prices (at least in this area) around $270 per ton. I think those prices are coming down a bit. I contacted a few hearth and home stores in the area and they are between $270 and $300. Gasp! It seems to me that the prices go lower the further North you go, into Northern New York, Conn., Vermont, etc. With more competition up there, they tend to find lower prices than closer to Philly and further South. I also understand that a few years ago, when oil prices really skyrocketed, that pellet prices did as well. Good old supply and demand. I guess my point is that I don't know that I would use the $200 price point for your calcuations.

Not sure how reputable this site is... but go to http://www.woodpellets.com/  and enter you zip code.
Mine came back with $179/ ton for the cheaper variety pellets if you bought 3 or more tons.  $189 per ton for 1 or 2 tons.  Delivery cost was only like $70  for 2 tons.....

Just an interesting link... I have experience with them, so I'd check some references before giving my credit card number out! :):)

-JK

From what I have read, they are pretty reputable. FWIW, they essentially sub out the sales to local delivery companies. I hear that their customer support is quite good, but that you can occassionally run into a local company that is less than top notch (headaches with delivery dates and time, ripped bags, wet pellets, etc.). Again, I hear the company is pretty good with trying to make things right when that happens. Again, this is just what I have read about them on-line.

Prices vary, depending on your location. For example, for my zip code, prices go from $229 to $269 (plus delivery - which is apparently free right now). I understand that the pellets they are selling in my area range around average. Not too great, no too bad.

I'll second the motion to start with a full energy audit, concentrating first on air-sealing, then spot-insulation. You can buy a HELUVA lot of insulation & air sealing for half the $35K price tag of geo, an cutting your heat load by 25%+ is a realistic expectation.

Are your foundation, sill & rim joists even insulated? A foam-seal & insulation of the sill & rim joists isn't required by code, but is a typical large leak of both conducted & infiltration heat. If you don't have at least R10 of rigid foam insulating foundation at least down to the frost line your hurting there big time.

Every ton of heat load you can pull off with insulation & air sealing reduces the up-front cost of the geo, not just the operating cost.

Are your foundation, sill & rim joists even insulated? A foam-seal & insulation of the sill & rim joists isn't required by code, but is a typical large leak of both conducted & infiltration heat. If you don't have at least R10 of rigid foam insulating foundation at least down to the frost line your hurting there big time.

Where can I find an explanation of what that is? I think I know what it is, but I'm not sure. Is that the "bay" were the basement ceiling joists hit the two by whatever which sits on top of the poured concrete basement wall? Right now, all I have in that "bay" is a semi-square piece of fiberglass insulation. It's probably about three inches thick.

Is this what you are suggesting?  http://www.familyhandyman.com/DIY-P...Step#step1

That's a small part of it.  A more complete & better explanation is found here.

Dana1 - I am concerned that I have highjacked the OP's thread. I'll start a new thread over in the Green/Energy Efficient Building and Construction Forum. If you could help me out over there, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!