Hello! First time post on these forums! thanks for all the great info here!

 I am about to start building a house in SE Michigan, Ray, MI 48096 I have natural gas at the road currently.


anyways, I am considering a geo thermal system I''m on 12 acres, so plenty of room for a horz system, and I will be digging a pond as well, so a pond system would work to anyways,

 the house will be 3000sq ft or so I'm debating whether or not to simply do a 95% effic furnace, and use extra money to upgrade insulation to spray foam or just go with regular insulation, and do a geo-thermal system any advise?
 thanks Ray

This truly does get down to a math puzzle. The best would be improved envelope plus geo. That being said there are plenty of all the other combinations you could come up with that work fine. It really is just a budget decision. Geo works fine everywhere when done well.
Eric

I'd get a modeling program or preferably hire someone who can do it for you - someone who isn't trying to sell you something. Include how long you intend to live there as part of the analysis.

A guess is that nat gas + lots of insulation is most cost effective, but each situation will vary.

While you might only save an extra couple hundred a year using geo vs. natural gas. You may want to consider if you want to be putting less CO2 into the air, and lower risk of CO in the home, and many other factors that make geo more attractive other than price. Geo homes don't have flammable gas/liquids stored in the home. Lot's to consider...

Do not forget about the 30% federal tax credit!!!!

yeah, the tax credit does help!

I plan on being here for 20+ years, long enough for the kids to go off to college.

Last week I had a opportunity to visit a OPEN HOUSE in our area. This was of great interest to me. This 1800 squft single level home was 5 years of age and was heated/cooled by a geothermal system(horizontal). My home is also a single level home of same size./Heated by by Natural gas and age of 8 years. I called the "Listing Agent" to book a appointment. I asked the Agent, if it was passible to see the monthly Hydro-bills for the last 12 months. Only the monthly Hydro-bills from Jan.2010 to August 2010 where provided by the seller. Total KWh use by the Geothermal System for 8 Months added up to: KWH 16647 Total KWh use for my Home for 8 Months added up to: KWH 5624 plus $352.00 for Ngas. I was in the basement when the Geothermal Unit started to run. The unit operates very quietly. Then I went upstairs in the living area. (Main floor) and checked the heat registers. The where all in the fully open position. The "Airflow" was way less compared to my Ngas forced system. The air temperature from the heat registers also was way less. I believe this explains why to run the system with a constant temperature setting. * Wintertime: Two hrs. before bedtime, I lower the thermostat from 70F to 63F. It doesn't take very long to bring the temperature back to 70F. OR set the programable thermostat 1/2 before starting the new day. I also use a "Electrostatic Furnace Filter". Washable and reusable, supposed to last a long time. (least restriction of air-flow). Don't take my word for. Do your homework. Even if you on the right truck, you will get run over. (Will Rogers). Even if you are on the right truck, you will get run over, if you stand still. (Will Rogers).

What is the heat loss/gain on both homes plus location/HDDs? What temperature is the geo house kept at? Is that total electric usage or just for heat, cool, and hot water. Do you have AC? There are many question that might show why you paid $400 less. And that is a guess based on .08 cents /KWH. You don't say what your rate and their rate is for electricity. It is hard to let facts speak for themselves, if all are not presented...

**TOTAL ENERGY use for each Home. Yes, I have AC. My hot water is powered by Hydro. Also both homes use a Dehumidifier in the basement/Summer. My Dehumidifier uses kwh/ 520Watt, when running. Both Homes have a finished basement. Both homes in the same area. (45min. car drive apart). I hope this answers your questions.

Heat loss/gain needs to be answered. I have seen 3000 sq ft. homes with very diverse heat loss. One end had 38KBtu/hr heat loss and at the other extreme I've seen another home that had 92KBtu/hr. The only way to tell is to do a complete and thorough Manual J and to be sure, a blower door test on each home. There are no two homes the same is what I'm trying to say.

Maintenence free improvements to a plan (i.e. insulation) often offer most bang for the buck. Any geo sales company can run a op cost calculation for you once you have blue prints. From that decision should be relatively easy.
Tax credits will impact your decision as some will be available to a new construction home and some will not.
Photovoltaic solar often can have a shorter pay back than geo (where nat gas is available).
For the most bang for your buck, you can buy square feet far cheaper than you can build them in MI today.
Good Luck,
Joe

What is the purpose of a 3 to 4 hr. Audit?

What does a Audit mean to the installing Dealer?

What does a Audit mean for the Homeowner?

Posted By fact finder on 03 Jan 2011 08:29 PM

What is the purpose of a 3 to 4 hr. Audit?

What does a Audit mean to the installing Dealer?

What does a Audit mean for the Homeowner?

ff,
feel free to start your own threads with questions. the general etiquette is to keep original poster's (OP) thread on their topic.

to answer your question we would have to know what was included in the "3 to 4 hour audit". start a thread and give us some detail, we'll be glad to help.

OP,
if you are still watching, have you had bids yet? i can tell you that payback thanks to tax credits on additional expense for geo in MI is usually less than 10 years in our area. if we eliminate a costly gas line from the road it could get closer to 5 years.
Joe

no bids yet, blueprints are being finished up as we speak, and then its bid time! I will still need to run a gas line for the fireplaces, and for backup, but we will see what I can do here.

I decided to go with spray foam for sure, so now it just boils down to costs....

keep us posted.
j

Been in my home for 9 yrs, Econar Duel Tec / Horizontal loop.  I run my hydronic in-floor heat w/ my geo and I get forced air (Hot & Cold) from the geo.  Built several houses since then and used all kinds of building techniques and HVAC systems.  I would Not do it again, I believe money is better spent with super insulation techniques and proper passive pricipals; as far as HVAC i am keeping it simple ( I would never go without my Radiant In-Floor heat).

I agree with tight insulation techniques, but what passive techniques are you talking about? cost? and what does it do to the traditional look and feel of a home? Geo doesn't make people change their habits or change the look of their homes. you set the thermostat and forget it like a traditional heating system. It's easy and it costs less to operate and maintain. Please be more specific about the alternatives and why you would not do it again. I do understand that some individuals will have different degrees of satisfaction with an installation and varying degrees of maintenance headaches. I am eager to see your response in more detail.

Hank your comments beg explanation.
j

I guess one really has to look at the numbers; I neglected the dollars numbers years ago and thaught I had to have the best technology had to offer.  I am only talking about simple things (Passive wise) southern facing building and some overhangs.  Structurally I would pay to have my whole house spray foamed if it were stick built, or build an ICF structure, or Double 2 x 4 wall w/ a cellulose cavity (Radiant floor heat in the Basement and potentially the main floor.  Rationale- Investment is in the house!!!  It would not pay to put a high performance engine in a stock Ford Fiesta w/no mods.  It is my belief that if the house is very well insulated and the doors and windows are quality, then there is less of a demand to heat and cool.  I put in a Geo-heat pump years back because I plumbed the unit, and my excavator dug the trench for free. I went Off - Peak with my Geo, Domestic hot water and my detached garage (electric mini-boiler).  At the time the discounted rate was reasonable, but now it is a joke (Polk / Burnett Electric CO-OP in Western WI).  Since I just finished a Garage/ workshop w/on room Flat made from ICF (3400 Sq ft) Frost protected Slab On Grade.  I will be building a home for my family when we sell the "wifes dream home #1" and heat w/ a gas boiler (Radiant) and use an air source heat pump for cooling mostly.   **As a side note my heat pump has never missed a beat in 9 years, but 3 days ago was the first glitch, I will be making my first service call today.

When I asked Google about Geothermal in NJ, it gave me an article about a man who lives nearby, including a video interview that ran on a local TV station. I called him, got a tour.

He said the house is incredibly comfortable, etc,etc.
But he has no idea if he is saving any money.
Why is that?
Well, the geothermal was part of big project to
put an addition on the house, so everything changed.

So here was someone saying nice things about
the installer and the technology, but not about the money.

I suspect his addition increased his heat load by 1/3,
and that the geo has absorbed the increase and more.

My suggestion (my plan) is to put an AmpHour meter
on whatever I install. So I can measure my usage.

Until then, we are micromanaging my boiler and radiators,
and I figured out how to calculate gas usage from the
audit of the system. (I will calibrate gas therms/minute
of runtime, and then multiply)

But because the installer did not include a meter,
this nice, happy customer is not a sales rep for him.