Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 24 Jan 2011 08:00 PM |
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We have a tranquility 27 in Northern Ontario which continually displays an E4 low water temp fault. We have a closed loop system in a river. The fault occurs when the temperature falls below minus 15 celcius exterior air temperature and won't reset for very long if at all. System placed in cool mode and back into heat mode - runs for about an hour. Technician tested the entering and exiting water temperatures which continue to fall until the system faults out. We have had almost everything changed in the unit - being told that it may be the antifreeze level or possibly the loop. Contractor wants to increase the antifreeze levels - Climatemaster technician is not sure if this is the answer. Anyone else experiencing this problem? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 24 Jan 2011 09:57 PM |
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Is the low water temperature sensor actually located on the refrigerant line leaving the heat exchanger? If so, check refrigerant pressure and temperature on low side.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 25 Jan 2011 12:14 AM |
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Is the river covered with ice?
What kind of water temperatures DO you get out of a river there in Northern Ontario this time of winter? |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 25 Jan 2011 08:08 AM |
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Sounds like you are under looped for the job. Would need more info to be sure.
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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gonegeo
New Member
Posts:65
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| 25 Jan 2011 08:36 AM |
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I agree, not enough loop in river, not enough flow through heat pump, or not enough antifreeze in loop.
What is the river temp this time of year? Frozen or not?
Any idea what the water temperature is entering the heat pump?
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www.energysquid.com "Dirt Cheap Energy for Life" |
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 25 Jan 2011 11:09 AM |
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Hi. Thanks all for the replies. I believe the thermistor is located on the bottom of the exchanger and was replaced last year when the same problem happened as it was known to have a run of bad thermistors a few years ago. This did not change anything as the same fault appeared last year when it eventually got cold enough. As well, a second pump on the incoming side was added. The incoming water temperature is 34 F and out going at about 29 F. The longer you wait, the lower the incoming temperature goes until you can hear the compressor labouring and then it faults out. I guess this is why running it in cool mode actually warms the loop enough to let it run for a while until the loop temp drops again. The river has ice on it and I think the loop is 1800 feet long but can't say 100%. New contractor checked the refridgerant pressures and said they were exactly where they should be. Not sure about the temperature mentioned for the low side.
Thanks again and not sure if this info will help but wanted a few ideas before spending the money.
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Bergy
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 25 Jan 2011 11:34 AM |
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What type of freeze protection does the loop have, and at what concentration?
Is the control board configured for closed loop or open loop?
Bergy
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IndyGEO
New Member
Posts:17
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| 25 Jan 2011 01:43 PM |
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I would agree. The antifreeze level needs to be checked. It could be something else but it sounds like the heatexchanger may be freezing up do to not enough antifreeze in the closed loop. |
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 25 Jan 2011 02:12 PM |
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The original installation contractor checked the antifreeze levels last year and said they were right on. But this was a company from further south and I have the feeling they did not take into account the severe winters that can sometimes happen and this is always when the system faults out. The antifreeze I assume is alcohol based and purple in colour if that helps.
There was light frost on the compressor when I looked at it a few weeks ago but that was after I had been trying several times to get it to run longer than 5 min. After a cool mode for 10 min. then back into heat mode the frost had evaporated.
Then of course it faulted out again after a short time.
After this forum discussion it would indeed seem that the next logical step is to check and increase the antifreeze concentration.
Thanks again.
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 25 Jan 2011 02:14 PM |
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Posted By Rad on 25 Jan 2011 02:12 PM
PS: The jumpers have been cut so it is apparently configured properly for a closed loop in the water system
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 25 Jan 2011 02:49 PM |
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The incoming water temperature is 34 F and out going at about 29 F. The longer you wait, the lower the incoming temperature goes until you can hear the compressor labouring and then it faults out. Are those the temps when you can run it or the temps indicating when it faults out? What temperature is the incoming when it faults out? That's right around the changeover temp for antifreeze usage. Is the controller configured for antifreeze usage? |
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 25 Jan 2011 08:24 PM |
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It did run at those temperatures however the LAT was only about 80F. It's a fairly large dwelling and when it's -5 F out side, 80 degree vent temps have trouble keeping up, hence the addition of LPG fireplaces.
I can't recall how much further the EWT fell before it locked out but maybe a degree or two. The contractor wrote it all down as it happened and in hind site so should of I. The jumpers are cut so that should allow it to run as I believe the spec parameters are much lower than that. I was told as the EWT and the LWT get closer and closer together they would just "flash" in the compressor and not result in anything productive. Don't totally understand the thinking but I assume the larger the difference the better off I would be.
Anyway the contractor is slated to come Thursday so I guess we'll try to increase the antifreeze and decrease my wallet!
Thanks for your help |
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dgbair
New Member
Posts:54
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| 25 Jan 2011 10:17 PM |
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Are you sure the correct jumper is cut? I remember reading somewhere there was a documentation problem. The JW3 - FP1 jumper should be clipped.
What is your EAT? |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 26 Jan 2011 04:03 PM |
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Posted By Rad on 25 Jan 2011 08:24 PM
It did run at those temperatures however the LAT was only about 80F. It's a fairly large dwelling and when it's -5 F out side, 80 degree vent temps have trouble keeping up, hence the addition of LPG fireplaces.
I can't recall how much further the EWT fell before it locked out but maybe a degree or two. The contractor wrote it all down as it happened and in hind site so should of I. The jumpers are cut so that should allow it to run as I believe the spec parameters are much lower than that. I was told as the EWT and the LWT get closer and closer together they would just "flash" in the compressor and not result in anything productive. Don't totally understand the thinking but I assume the larger the difference the better off I would be.
Anyway the contractor is slated to come Thursday so I guess we'll try to increase the antifreeze and decrease my wallet!
Thanks for your help
Temps coming together indicates ice built-up on the inside of the heat exchanger, a clear sign of a lack of antifreeze. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 30 Jan 2011 08:35 PM |
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Thanks all for the help
New contractor added 30 gal. of antifreeze as the original mix was only at 8% alcohol by volume. Now at 30% and running great in -25 C temps. Either the original installer really screwed up or I have a leak and it somehow got diluted. Not sure if this is possible to dilute a loop. At any rate we are back with heat.
Thanks again. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 31 Jan 2011 05:13 PM |
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Good news
What EWT and LWT are you seeing now? |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Rad
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Feb 2011 08:27 PM |
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Update for the fixed E4 fault. Spent the last 10 days with the system running fine and although outside temps dropped to almost -30 C. last night it continued to run. The 3rd stage was kicking in as required as the 2nd stage couldn't keep up but understandable at those exterior temps. Anyway it would appear that we have the problem fixed. Didn't check the EWT and LWT while the contractor was there as we flushed the loop with room temp antifreeze so probably would have been a false reading until everything had several hours to stabilize. Will check next time I go north.
Stuart? wanted to know about method of checking the loop antifreeze sample and it was done by contractor, with me in attendance, and the sample was warmed in the vial until it was 20C. and then read with the hygrometer and the reading transferred to the chart they had which transferred into 8%. Chart was from the internet and they added 30 gal. until the next sample again warmed to 20 C and again transferred the reading to be 29% protection. Don't remember the original installer warming the sample or using a cross reference sheet so maybe there is another method but obviously theirs was the wrong method as everything works fine now. Wish I knew how much went in originally. Cost was almost $1000 but at least we're up and running after 2 years of fighting it.
Thanks all for the help. |
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bdeboer44
New Member
Posts:1
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| 15 Jan 2014 09:13 AM |
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not sure if the unit we have been working is a tranquility 27, but it is the new climate master, model # tev026agdo2clts. we have been having the same issue, unit will run a short amount of time and go out on low water temp, in talking with the factory, the unit comes set up for 7 degrees heating water delta T, we had to change that value to 4 degrees, which increased the varible pump speed to get more water through the heat exchanger. thats been 4 weeks ago and have had no problems since then, my LT1 temp would get down to 28.5 degrees then it would lock out, now LT1 runs about 32 to 33 degrees. were in oklahoma and it probably not as cold here, but it would only fault out when it got below about 15 degrees f. |
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