I spoke the head of commercial sales at B.A. Robinson a Winnipeg (Manitoba/Canada) retailer/wholesaler about a year ago when they installed an Acadia Heat pump.
They were pretty enthusiastic about it at that time and installed two to heat/cool their office building here.
I went back in today to inquire and was told that they were not selling the Acadia and were removing them come spring (its still -30c here). Seems they have had nothing but problems with them and added that below -10c they were next to useless.
That was very discouraging since I was hoping to buy these as am affordable alternative to a GHP.

Is anyone in a cold (-30) climate using one of these that can comment?

I'm not aware of any enthusiastic supporters of Acadia heat pumps here

That was very discouraging since I was hoping to buy these as am affordable alternative to a GHP.

What's wrong with geothermal up there? Don't you have more than 10,000 heating degree days?

kenora, my memory agrees with that of engineer's. You can search Acadia in the search box, but make sure to click on the box next to the search box to initiate the search (not the enter key.)

Also, ICF Hybrid has no geothermal service, installation, training or ownership experience. Responding to his unproductive questions, answers and comments regarding geothermal is ill-advised.

Also, ICF Hybrid has no geothermal service, installation, training or ownership experience.

Aren't you the guy who can't mix antifreeze, doesn't know how a refractometer works and was asking basic questions about hydrometers?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Feb 2011 09:37 AM

Also, ICF Hybrid has no geothermal service, installation, training or ownership experience.

Aren't you the guy who can't mix antifreeze, doesn't know how a refractometer works and was asking basic questions about hydrometers?

Duh - I didn't mix the antifreeze.  You haven't answered the relevant questions I posed regarding the refractometer (and I don't believe you can or you would have already), and you didn't even mention using a hydrometer.  I suppose you missed that class in chemical engineering school.

You believe it is better to mislead and waste the time of homeowners who have geothermal problems by asking irrelevant questions and guessing at solutions, than it is for people to pass on what they have learned from experience.  It seems you also believe that asking questions to further one's knowledge is bad somehow.  Makes sense. 

At best, you waste the time of homeowners looking for solutions to their problems.  At worst, you mislead them by not disclosing that you have no experience with geothermal whatsoever, and justify it by saying that people should be cautious when given advise on the internet.

P.S.  Cease sending me unwanted PM's or you will be reported to the administrator of this forum. 

I suppose you missed that class in chemical engineering school.

"chemical engineering school" is a four year university degree. I also have graduate degrees in science and engineering and 30 years of industry experience. I'm not misleading anyone.

So far, your approaches have been to walk through the troubleshooting section of an "Installation and Operation" manual. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not everything there is, either.

It seems you also believe that asking questions to further one's knowledge is bad somehow.

Not at all. Have you considered that the questions I asked (which you think are a waste) were also designed to "further one's knowledge"?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Feb 2011 10:55 AM

I suppose you missed that class in chemical engineering school.

"chemical engineering school" is a four year university degree. I also have graduate degrees in science and engineering and 30 years of industry experience. I'm not misleading anyone.

So far, your approaches have been to walk through the troubleshooting section of an "Installation and Operation" manual. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not everything there is, either.

It seems you also believe that asking questions to further one's knowledge is bad somehow.

Not at all. Have you considered that the questions I asked (which you think are a waste) were also designed to "further one's knowledge"?

So you believe your degrees and industry experience (what industry was that again?) prevents you from misleading someone here, even though you have NO geothermal experience?

Myself and two respected professionals believe your questions and responses are getting in the way of helping homeowners.

You can't win an argument with an ignorant person (or a troll).  No point continuing this.  Sorry OP.

To the original poster Kenora,

We're using an ASHP here in Toronto with good success, but it's not an Acadia unit.  Engineer's correct that there's very few positive experiences with the Acadia heat pump in this forum.  We're running a Daikin Altherma.

I'd set your expectations appropriately though, an ASHP won't give you anywhere near the capacity of a GSHP, and the lower the ambient temperature, the lower the output of an ASHP.  In our case, we have a natural gas backup that kicks in around -10C as it won't supply enough heat, but with the right set of circumstances, an ASHP or a hybrid approach can be a far cheaper alternative than GSHP.

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

Acadia's aside.
It is my experience that ASHPs in Northern climates tend to pay for themselves about as quickly as geo. The numbers are simply smaller.
In a case such as Victors where nat gas is available, it may make more sense than geo simply due to the high start up cost (of geo).
Good luck,
Joe

I think it's very situation specific.

ASHP with NG backup is a very viable option, suitable for urban areas.  GSHP I think would be very well suited where trenching is an option, such as in a rural area with acreage, where NG isn't available.  IMHO the deciding factor is where a horizontal system isn't viable and a vertical system must be installed, as it's very hard to recover from the drilling costs, at least in this area where it's $12+/foot of drilling, and more if it's on the Canadian Shield where it's granite.  Not too far north of Toronto where I am are many cottages that are situated on the Shield, and those I think would be ideal for an ASHP plus propane (or electric) backup.

The moral of the story is, each situation is different. 

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

An ASHP in Canada? Even I could have told them that was a bad idea. I hate my Goodman ASHP with a passion, once the temperature drops below 40 degrees, your efficiency is toast. Even the new Goodman ASHPs claim that they can get 2 COP at 20 F degrees, but don't believe it. Once you drop below freezing, your better off with electric space heaters. They are better suited for the southern United States, not the northern US and certainly not Canada.

Not all ASHPs are the same. vkykam is referring to the Daikin AC Altherma which is a new high efficiency inverter ASHP. It can deliver 2.0 COP at 0F. Hallowell is another company with a high-efficiency inverter ASHP called the Acadia.

There is also the option of a Geothermal Split with Natural Gas back up.

TechGromit - As I said, it's very situation specific. If it's an older home an ASHP probably isn't a good idea because of the low outputs. But for a well insulated house of today's standard, an ASHP is feasible. We're running it down to -10C and keeping pace on 6300sqft of conditoned space, 1/3 of which is the basement, but the house is seal up very well. If it's 30 year old 2500sqft house in Canada needing probably upwards of 100kBTU/h @ -20C, then ASHP won't be a very good idea. Let's put it this way, in Canada, it's very unlikely a mainstream choice, unless you're in Vancouver or the islands.

GeoJohn - Geothermal split with NG backup is a good idea, if the geo itself doesn't supply enough heat at design temp. However, the point I was making was the cost of the geo when drilling is necessary, which makes it far less economical and can make an ASHP a more viable option.

ICFHybrid - I don't believe the Acadia ASHP are an inverter pump, I'm pretty sure it's a 2 stage, IIRC from reading the tech manual from a few weeks back. The inverter pump doesn't mean much though when you're maxing it out as we have been this winter. When it starts to warm is when the COP of the Altherma will deviate from the rest of the 2 stage ASHP units.

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

You're right. The Acadia does not utilize inverter technology. It is a true two stage system.

The key to any type of heating equipment is the cost of energy. Some areas has extremely low electric rates which enables electric heaters to assist a heat pump in extreme weather conditions. All heat pumps COP(coefficient of performance) dimenish as temperatures drop below freezing.As much energy goes into defrosting the outdoor coil as what is being transferred into the space.When the COP drops below 2, the payback of equipment cost as compared to a gas fired furnace, boiler usually becomes non cost effective. In the southern climate zones, where I live ASHP work fairly well, until the weather becomes extreme. I am sure there are lots of cold homes in Texas this week.

Looking actually into the performance of the Acadia, at 40F and above they are quite impressive. I did a rough comparision between gas furnace and the Acadia . Take Michigan for example. The Acadia would surpass a 98% gas furnace at 40F and above, but at 0F the gas fired furnace would cost about 40% less to operate. These numbers are based on a zero tier type billing without penalties for exceeding either kw or therm units from the base pricing.A geothermal would narrow the differences between a gas fired and heat pump. I will need to look into using them as well as the Altherma in the climate zone that i reside.

Be sure to browse user experiences and satisfaction with Acadia before making a purchase decision.

I take Michigan everyday.......
As I mentioned before, ASHPs pay for themselves just as quickly as geo with much less start-up cost (and much less savings).
j