My elec. Bill jumped and a few weeks ago I came home to a cold house and then every few days I get Fault ‘E4- Low water temp’. I also noticed a decrease in heat out the register but I do not have temps from before only what I noticed when putting hand over it. I have measurements now though they are below. Shouldn’t this thing be putting heat out at something better than an increase of 4 deg.

1) Carlisle , PA (central PA)
2) ? new home with r50 in ceiling and 26 in walls. Very well sealed does not loose much heat
3) ClimateMaster, Tranquility 27, Size -038, Two stage scroll, GLHP (Ground Loop Heat Pump – Geothermal), With Desuperheater, Heat exchanger=standard copper, . Model=TTV038AGC01ALKS, 3 years Old.
4) Type of loop field (Closed loop) Single well drilled 450, water at 100’
5) Average cost/Kwh = 60 Kwh but the last two month or so have been 89 Kwh
6)stage 1- EWT - 55' LWT - 53' EAT - 64' LAT - 68'
stage 2 - EWT - 55' LWT - 52' EAT - 66' LAT - 70'
stage 3 - EWT - 55' LWT - 52' EAT - 64' LAT - 104'
Reading at a different time when I first started noticing problems
After running for 30 min or so
stage 2 - EWT - 55' LWT - 53' EAT - 69' LAT – 73
stage 3 aux - EWT - ?' LWT - ?' EAT - 68' LAT – 99
Entering and leaving air temperatures (EAT, LAT) measured immediately upstream and downstream of the heatpump. Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the geo system
8) Percent of load to be covered by geo and balance point
9) Installer's assessment of your systems operation. # years ago he said everything is good. I have placed many calls with no return calls to get him back out to look at it.
10) Projected operating costs , actual operating cost and previous heating and cooling costs. My monthly Electric bill is usually $145 or so in winter, $115 summer and $95 fall . Feb was $309 2,460Kwh, Jan was $253 2,017Kwh . Dec was $161 1,298Kwh and Nov was $117 951 Kwh

The most electric I have used in a billing cycle over the last two years previous to the last two months was 1726 Kwh .

Hard to guess via 'net but symptoms are consistent with a lost of refrigerant charge. System is making heat via aux strips and that greatly increases electricity use.

The low water temp error may in fact be from a thermistor affixed to the refrigerant line leaving the waterside heat exchanger. Low refrigerant charge causes low refrigerant pressure and temperature, triggering the alarm.

The bills suggest problem began in December. That the EWT is near undisturbed deep ground temp for the area indicates the unit hasn't extracted much heat from the ground for quite some time.

Thanks Engineer After searching the forums I had a similar conclusion. I can hear the water from ground loop it does not sound like it has air in it but that may be hard to tell. The compressor runs I can hear that. It is pumping a little heat but not much. Now I need to figure out how to test the refrigerant and if it is low where is the leak? Do they have a reasonable priced testing supplies for this? could it be possible they never put enough refrigerant in from the start?

Engineer will you be in the central PA area anytime soon? I need someone who knows what they are doing and will actually return calls and come out so I can get this fixed. Any HVAC person should be able to test refrigerant and recharge if needed even if they are not geothermal specialist my worry is that if I get a non geo HVAC tech. they may not be able to fix the problem.

Posted By zxylene on 05 Mar 2011 10:58 PM
Thanks Engineer After searching the forums I had a similar conclusion. I can hear the water from ground loop it does not sound like it has air in it but that may be hard to tell. The compressor runs I can hear that. It is pumping a little heat but not much. Now I need to figure out how to test the refrigerant and if it is low were is the leak. Do they have a reasonable priced testing supplies for this?

Electronic leak detector , refrigerant manifold, electronic thermometer just to name a few. A certified technician is needed with a valid EPA card. Refrigerant can not be purchased without EPA certification.
.

Try this site or igshpa list for trained techs in your area.
Internet assumptions are not completely reliable as we do nto know what you are not telling us (for instance some folks might think a compressor is running that isn't.....).
Once we get into the refrigerant side it is not a very good DIY project.
J

Thanks for the help. joe.ami thanks for the link I will try and get an installer out and look at it. I am just afraid of what the cost may be. The weird thing is I am getting hot water via H.W.G.. I am also curious what would happen if I put it in cooling mode if I do not get cold air then the refrigerant would be an even more obvious problem. I read somewhere about the jumpers and my jw3 or FP1 is clipped but jw2 or FP2 is not clipped I could swear that I read about the JW2 jumper but I don't think that is going to matter when I am really not getting any heat. I will get someone out and after I do I will post my results. It may be a while as the electric bill is sucking up my money and I need money to get the heat fixed to stop this. 

I am certainly disappointed though as the unit is only three years old.

Sorry I can't help you with a trip to PA

If there is just enough charge left to keep the system off the low pressure cut out it'll still produce superheated gas at the compressor discharge which allows HWG to produce warm water.

As has been said, this situation needs a site visit - my guesses are just that - pure conjecture.

Your temps are close enough (entering/leaving), that I'm not convinced compressor is running at all. Does it change briefly after you reset system (turn tstat to off and then back to heat)?
j

The compressor is running it may not be doing much but it is running I can feel it kick on when I have my hand on the compressor. Plus I can also hear the sound of the compressor. I turned my air conditioner on today because I had to know if it was a heat only thing and a few min after it was on not much cold air and I got error e5 low air coil temp so the air conditioner will not run either. I tested it while it was running and got 64 in and out going temps. I left the fan on to stabilize the temps first . The ac will run for about two min and then fail with e5 low air coils temp. I am still getting great hot water from it though. I set the system to emergency heat until I can get someone out here. Running the compressor all the time 24 / 7 for no heat but only hot water is a waste.

I finally got some one out and my unit is almost completely out of refrigerant. They found a leak in the air coil and it will need replaced. good new is that it is covered under warranty bad news is the unit is only three years old so this is problem two in three years and for them to fix it requires i am told 4 hours of labor which i am told is not covered. I am very mad at Climatemaster right now. So their defect is going to cost me over $1000 when it is all said and done.

Bummer.
If TT27 coil leaks were common I would be glad to criticize with you. Sounds like bad luck.
I know it's little comfort, but I hope you've saved lots on your utility bills since you put it in.
J

If it's under warranty, why do they not include labor for their defective part???? That's what a warranty is!! If something happens to your car under warranty, you DON'T pay  for 'any' labor to get it fixed!

Base warranty for most HVAC equipment is 5 year parts and 1 year labor. Extended warranties for most are ten years parts and labor.

Bergy

Posted By robinnc on 19 Mar 2011 12:10 AM
If it's under warranty, why do they not include labor for their defective part???? That's what a warranty is!! If something happens to your car under warranty, you DON'T pay  for 'any' labor to get it fixed!

Since the "car warranty analogy" has raised it's head again I'd like to add 2 cents.
generally, self contained products come with part/labor warranties, i.e. cars, refrigerators, stoves etc.
products that are highly dependant on the installer, do not i.e. roofs, furnaces etc.

Total warranties are often not great coverage. My '06 Chevy for example had a 3-36 warranty that was nearly exhausted by 07 (I drove 32kmiles that year). My '07 ford with a 60k warranty coverd me for 2 years......I also tend to drive a 100K miles in three years so the longest warranties available offer little extra coverage to me (I'd have bought a Dodge with "lifetime" but wasn't sure the company would be around).

Energy Star spells out certain warranty requirements on heat pumps these days so you find coverage longer than most conventional furnaces and heat pumps on labor and sometimes part sides. The shortest labor warranty I'm aware of currently is 2 years for a geo heat pump even if you are in the arctic vs KY (making it no worse than my last auto warranty) while the shortest compressor warranty I know of is 10 years.

All and all the coverage is pretty darned good. Frankly better than most car warranties.

None of this of course offers much comfort to OP.

Joe

The HVAC guy came out and $700 + later my system is working I am getting stage one EWT - 52' LWT - 47' EAT - 68' LAT - 93' . and on stage two EWT - 52' LWT - 43' EAT - 68' LAT - 103'. There was only 7 oz of refrigerant left in the system. I am happy it is working now but not happy about the cost after only three years of use having defective part basically cost me over $1000 of troubles and a cold house. The New exchanger (coil) or whatever it is called is completely different looking. The HVAC guy said this is the fourth one they replace for a leak in the last year. I contacted Climatemaster and am waiting on a call back from them.

zxylene,
Glad you have it working again.