Hello Everybody, I'm new to this forum. I recently had a contractor out to my home re installation of a geothermal heat pump system. I have a well and he indicated that I was set up quite good for an open loop system. We discussed all of the variables re cost  that I am sure you all are aware of such as the tax credits, energy savings etc. He gave me a ballpark figure and after about a day I felt pretty good about good ahead with it. There were some things that needed to be checked on such as well capacity and if the discharge well would handle things ok. After he talked to my well driller, the driller recommended a more powerful pump (about $3500) to accomodate the heavier use. The cost of this was not included in the oroginal ballpark bid, but I have no heartburn over an oversight like that. The approximate cost of the discharge well was included in his ballpark est.  Anyway, after checking into things and hashing stuff out a little he came back with a bid est. at about 9K higher. Now for the record he seemed like a sharp young guy. He's a young guy, an engineer.  I do not get the feeling he is not above board, just maybe a little new to this particular business. The business is his and I respect the fact he has the moxy to go for it. He evidently undershot some costs in our initial meeting.

Anyway, I got to snooping around on the internet and this certainly seems to be the best discussion board I've found. I see that there is a search option so if I am beng redundant with any questions please don't hesitate to let me know there is another thread that has discussed the item in detail. I'm being a little lazy in that sometimes one has to put in a lot of time on searching for answers to a particular question but I'll do it if necessary. My house has 2 oil furnaces, the result of an 1100 foot upstairs addition. Total sq footage for my place is about 2900 sq ft. on one acre..Oil is killin me. The contractor told me that I would need two heat pumps.

So what I am doing is double checking on some of his numbers, as well as considering some other options. Some info I wanted to research is what sized pump(s) is requred for a home my size, and where I live.  I assume the climate plays into it. I was also curious how deep the trench would have to be from my well. By other options I meant that I might check into buying the heat pumps myself,  finding my own backhoe guy, and perhaps whatever else--like if a plumber is needed I know one etc, or whatever else I'm not thinking of....I'm already trying to get prices from other well drillers. If I remember correctly the discharge would be at about 15 gal a minute? Finding some of these other options I understand you obviously cannot help me with other than maybe buying the heat pump myself and not thru the contractor. As far as laying pipe from the well, hooking the system up to the vents, water heater and so on I think I'll use a pro.

I was told that the heat pumps could also be hooked up with my electric hot water heater (which needs to be replaced) reducing that electrical cost by 50 to 75%.

So, I'm just trying educate myself a little, and save a few bucks. I was told the out front pre credit would be about 25K. The trench is around 30 feet--then maybe 20 feet or so (but not as deep) out to the discharge. Any info re my pump and trench questions would be much appreciated--as well as any other pointers or thoughts. I'd love to do the heat pump system but I'm grittin my teeth a little over the 25K (minus about a $7500 credit)--but maybe that's a hell of a deal, I don't really know.  I have not yet done an audit for the last couple of years oil and electricity usage--I'm in the process but trust me, oil is tough--  Thanks again for any help or suggestons.

Hey Everyone! I've been reading up on the articles on this forum for a few days now... So I'll break the silence. I'm new to the forum but not to the industry. One way or another I've been involved with Geothermal for the Past 15 years (Arguably more). I have overseen 10's of thousands installations, if not 100's of thousands.

So after the little introduction above I'd like to try to address these issues in this thread.

Where about are you located? Also have anyone done a heat loss on your residence. Considering with no information of where you are located as well as designed heat loss of the house. Guessing from the information provided you need somewhere between 1-2 heat pumps in your house. I would suggest with the info provided you are in the range of 6-8 tons worth of geothermal. Also depending on the ductwork layout might be the reason you are being suggested two systems. Pretty much every manufacture in both Canada and the United States only make as big as a 6 ton system for residential applications. Considering your 2900 Sq Ft. in an undisclosed location, on average you might need around 2 tons per thousand sq ft (not a guarantee there are many unknown factors).

I strongly suggest you hire a professional contractor for the installation. If you do not have faith in the current contractor there are many others to choose from I'm sure of. Inquire quotes from some of them. Do not attempt to buy yourself the equipments. This might save you a few bucks to start but will leave you with a problem finding a professional installer to work with you, and warranty with the furnace. (pretty much all companies have a loop hole in the warranty for this.) Or you will be sold a commercial unit which has on 90 day warranty on it. Remember you get what you pay for!

Depending on the equipment you do require for your house you need approximately 2 GPM per ton, 6-8 tons means you will required 12-16 GPM in the supply well. In order to ensure that the discharge well can accept that water it should be able to produce 50% more water that it receives, which means you need 18-24 GPM in the discharge well. Your hired professional may have his own backhoe to use, which may end up costing the same as yours. When I was a contractor in this scenario the homeowner would actually pay me more money to arrange things himself. My rates would go up, my hours on site went way up. Variable to this would include extra mans to train your back hoe operator what to do, and for me to monitor what he did. The companies I used were familiar with the installation, at least then they know what needs to be done, less babysitting for the contractor. I'm not quite as familiar with how exactly the tax credit works there but where I’m from a homeowner is not entitled to rebates if it's not professionally done.

Maybe clarify what the 25,000 was to provide you, if that included two units that is a great price. Here where I'm from you'd be lucky to get one heat pump completely installed for that price.

Sorry reading over I just wanted to clairify one thing. The supply well if you require house water from it as well as the heat pump you should be in the 18-24 GPM range on the supply side as well. Normal house hold water should have at least 6 GPM.

Posted By liveGeothermal on 10 May 2011 03:36 PM
One way or another I've been involved with Geothermal for the Past 15 years (Arguably more). I have overseen 10's of thousands installations, if not 100's of thousands.

365 days/yr x 15 years = 5,479 days (includes 4 days for leap years)

100,000 installations / 5,475 days = 18.26 overseen installations per day, 7 days per week, non-stop for the last 15 years.
10,000 installations would be 1.83 overseen installations per day, 7 days per week, non-stop for the last 15 years.
20,000 installations would be 3.65 overseen installations per day, 7 days per week, non-stop for the last 15 years.

Does this difficult pace tend to make a person exaggerate a bit?

At least you can do some math.... but with close to 300 contractors selling my products...... no exaggeration needed.

Posted By liveGeothermal on 10 May 2011 05:48 PM
At least you can do some math.... but with close to 300 contractors selling my products...... no exaggeration needed.

OK, would you then please explain to us your role in overseeing 2 to 18+ installations per day for the last 15 years?  Maybe your definition of "oversee" is different from mine - Supervise (a person or work), esp. in an official capacity.

Essentially means I've been responsible for the decisions made on the jobs. Made sure contractors have sized correctly, draw out loop designs, etc. etc. I'm not here to argue with you and get off the topic geome.... but since we already have I notice Marathon on the bottom. Marathon, ON?

Marathon water heater.

@live geothermal,

The sooner you fess up, the sooner you will get street cred. Your real name, name of your business, name or types of equip you represent-sell, web site if applicable. It really helps if we know who we are talking with, not just the milllions of widgets we have sold or installed.
welcome
Eric

he indicated that I was set up quite good for an open loop system

Was the water tested? I suggest keeping pressure low and then using a booster pump for house water.

thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it. I did not mean to get any controversy going, and I appreciate the input. After I posted my request, spent about an hour on different threads and realize now how much I do not know about this. Probably should have done all the reading first but there is a lot of info and like I confessed to earlier, I was kind of shortcutting a little.

I live in Reno, NV. Surprisingly, there are not that many contractors at all here. It seems to kind of a start up. The young man mentioned above I think is jumping in ground floor on what coud be a great opportunity for him. I think they are going to do great. I think he's a sharp guy but we just had a little miscommunication that had me thinking one thing then I got the bad news on the bid correction. I don't mean to bag on him at all. As far as getting other bids, there are just not many folks here doing installs. So I'm doing what I can to follow up on some things.

The well produces about 16 gal per minute. I had a pump replaced a few years ago and they guy told me it was a "kick ass" well for whatever that's worth. If I am reading the paperwork right the well is about 75 feet deep wth the pumping level at 27 feet ( I live near a river). I'm going to call the driller and follow up. Evidently he feels the well can put out more water given his suggestion to the contractor for a higher capacity pump. I had been meaning to call anyway because I was wondering about the discharge well being able to take 15 gal a minute. I will admit though, I do wonder about water pressure issues with that thing going all the time. Right now you can tell the difference in pressure if you are taking a shower and somebody turns the washing machine on. A lot of that sometimes has to do with me staying on top of my filters. There is a red (iron type) sediment that can coat things up pretty quick. If I go long without changing that filter it can shut the whole house down.

I may have been remiss in my assumption about a trench from the well too. Evidently they can tie into an existing line? I was thinking they had to tie in at the well for a more constant water temperature or something. If that is the case, and I am not sure it is, then obviously the trenching is not nearly as big an issue.

25K would be cheap for two heat pumps and well drilling.
The most important component in your geo satisfaction will be the installing contractor. Be very certain you are going to be well served by your selection.
J

You really MUST have your water tested and make sure it is within quality limits set by the manufactures.  The large increase in water flow will also require more attention be paid to the filtration system.

If you decide to go with the "new" guy, I would withhold a large percent of the contract to insure the system works properly.  Remember, just because he is an Engineer does not mean he knows squat about heating and cooling.


Bergy

A few thoughts:

1) $3500 for a submersible well pump installed in a 75-foot deep well sounds high. I paid $615 for my 25GPM Goulds 1hp 3-wire pump that replaced my 10GPM 1/2hp pump when I put in my open loop system. But that's just a parts-only cost. I suppose a variable speed pump like one of those fancy Grundfos units might be more, but even then I'm not sure how you'd get to $3500. Of course your driller's labor isn't free and he needs to make a little profit too.

2) That red iron sediment may mean your well water isn't suitable for open loop....as Bergy and jonr suggest, don't go any farther down this route until you have the water tested to see if it is within the specs for the particular brand of heat pump you are looking at. See page 15 of this document for an example: http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/97B0045N03.pdf
Imagine how much more often you might have to clean or change filters when you start drawing thousands of gallons of water a day through the heat pumps instead of just a couple hundred gallons a day for household uses. If water quality means that open loop is out of the question, then you may have to consider closed loop, or perhaps other alternatives like an air-source heat pump plus oil or electric backup for the colder months.

3) Also before you go much farther, get a heat loss calc or "Manual J" done on your house so you know how many BTU (and what size heat pumps) you'll need for your house....and in your situation what size for each of the two pumps. When determining heat pump size, consider that many in this industry suggest sizing your heat pump to 70% to 95% of the maximum expected heat loss to substantially reduce capital costs, and then using a minimal amount of supplemental electric heat strips installed at the furnace to supply the last little bit of heat needed on the coldest handful of nights of the winter.

3) You likely won't need to trench in a new line from your supply well to the house, but you will need to trench a line from the house to the discharge well.

4) Depending on your skill-set, DIY is not out of the question for parts of an open loop job...plumbing, trenching, moving old furnaces out of the basement and new ones in, etc. But $18k fully installed after tax credits for two units really doesn't sound too bad.

Posted By tightline on 11 May 2011 10:43 AM
There is a red (iron type) sediment that can coat things up pretty quick. If I go long without changing that filter it can shut the whole house down. 

That above is a big red flag for me for use as an open loop geothermal system.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my questions. I really do appreciate it. It's the kind of advice that can really matter. Just as a follow up, when you mention testing--who does this? The well driller? When I get the results, I assume that I check with the manufacturer of the heat pump to see if it is viable? I was told that the water issue is very common and needs to be dealt with in most situations (in this area anyway). You are also right about the filters. They're not cheap. This is something that would definitely have to be figured into the "payback". In my case, I have a big filter at the inflow just before my water softener. I'm not sure but I assume that the water may go from that to the pumps...maybe not though. If not I'd have two different filters to deal with. Also, if it did go thru the softener first I'd have the additional cost of salt due to the increased use.

It would be nice to make this thing a go. I hate writing out that bill for oil. Who knows where that pricetag is going to go in the future.

Since you also have a water softener, that indicates you have issues with calcium hardness in your well water also. Another big red flag. I'm in the same situation with both clear water iron and calcium hardness in my well water. That is why I will be using a closed loop geothermal system because all of the total dissolved solids in the water will plate out in your geothermal heat exchanger and create a real maintenance headache trying to keep it clean.

Do you know what the hardness level is in your water supply? i.e. how many grains per gallon (gpg) hardness. Mine is 25 gpg which is pretty hard.

It really wouldn't be feasible to run your geothermal water supply through the water softener. Most home use water softeners aren't even capable of supplying 15 gpm and still maintain a reasonable supply pressure. Do you know how large your water softener is in grains? Most typical home sized units have a 30,000 to 48,000 grain capacity.

If you have a 5 or 6 ton geothermal heat pump pulling ~15 gpm water flow through it, that is 15 gpm x 60 minutes x 24 hours = 21,600 gallons per day. Assuming only 50% run time on the geothermal unit and you are still looking at ~10,000 gallons of water per day.

Most average home size water softeners, ~4' tall x ~9" diameter, are typically rated for ~40,000 grains before needing to be regenerated. Assuming you have a low to moderate hardness of 15 grains per gallon and you are using 10,000 gallons per day for your geothermal, that equates to 150,000 grains of hardness that will have to be removed. You would have to regenerate the water softener ~4 times per day just to keep up with the water used by the geothermal. Not feasible.

Posted By jml on 12 May 2011 02:33 PM
A few thoughts:

1) $3500 for a submersible well pump installed in a 75-foot deep well sounds high. ....  Of course your driller's labor isn't free and he needs to make a little profit too.

2) ...  don't go any farther down this route until you have the water tested to see if it is within the specs for the particular brand of heat pump you are looking at. ...

3) ... get a heat loss calc or "Manual J" done on your house so you know how many BTU (and what size heat pumps) you'll need for your house....

3) You likely won't need to trench in a new line from your supply well to the house, but you will need to trench a line from the house to the discharge well.

4) Depending on your skill-set, DIY is not out of the question for parts of an open loop job...plumbing, trenching, moving old furnaces out of the basement and new ones in, etc. But $18k fully installed after tax credits for two units really doesn't sound too bad.

1. I had my well water pump replaced last year, they guy charged me $1,000, but when I looked the pumps model up on the internet, the pump only cost $250. I could have done it myself, but not having any experience with well pumps, I felt it wasn't a job i could do myself. The only part I would have had trouble with, is there's an elbow fitting that directs the water from the well into the house, it was about 4 feet down, not being about to see the connection, you have to know by feel how to disconnect it and reconnect it when your completed. When you don't have the knowledge to do something, contractors can charge you what ever they feel like you can afford. The guy replaced the pump in just under 1 hour, that's a $750 "little profit" for an hours work.

2. I agree, there was a story about a new city library that was sold on the appeal of a green solution for there heating and cooling, an open loop geothermal system was installed, but since the water was never tested, it wasn't suited for an open loop system. After several years of having the system serviced every few months to clean out the deposit buildups on the heat pump exchanger, they ripped the system out and put in a natural gas system. One bad geothermal install can turn off a lot of people to it. If a closed loop system was installed in the first place, its be still running today.

3. Too many contractors use a rule of thumb estimate when installing systems, weather its a Geothermal System, Natural Gas or Oil system.  One ton per so many square feet of house. Unfortunately this fails to take into account the installation, windows, climate and other factors that can affect the system. An oversize system is just as bad as an undersized system. A drafty old house might require a larger system than a much larger house that's super insulated. The only way to really tell is with a good Heat/Loss Calculation, preferably with a blower door test.  Even if you have to pay for this separately for a few hundred dollars, it's well worth the cost if it saves you from over spending thousands on a larger system then you need, or spending thousands more to fix a system that was undersized in the first place.     

4. Is do it yourself possible? Yes, but it's not for the faint of heart. It requires a lot of research and know how to install it correctly. Even if you plan to do everything yourself, it's well worth it to have item #3 done professionally so you have a starting point. 
 
      

If you have marginal (not unacceptable) water for an open loop system, you need to look at a a system to make acid flushing very simple (or automated) rather than softening. Hardness is primarily a problem when cooling, not heating (adding heat to the water causes precipitation and scaling).

Posted By Bergy on 12 May 2011 08:43 AM
You really MUST have your water tested and make sure it is within quality limits set by the manufactures.  The large increase in water flow will also require more attention be paid to the filtration system.

If you decide to go with the "new" guy, I would withhold a large percent of the contract to insure the system works properly.  Remember, just because he is an Engineer does not mean he knows squat about heating and cooling.


Bergy

An engineer practicing out-of-field may be worse than a complete tyro - the engineer knows just enough to be really dangerous...it's a bit like the difference between two and four wheel drive...in really tough going, having four wheel drive just causes one to get stuck further away from where help is available.