Hello. I'm new here and this is my first post. I doubt I can keep this brief, but I'll try to make it not too much of a wall of text:

My home in Garland, Texas (a Dallas suburb) has an air-sourced heat pump in the last stages of terminal illness (still operational, but the 25-year-old air handler is leaking refrigerant and the 12-year-old compressor isn't doing so well.) It is still cooling, but it can no longer keep up in the late afternoon, so I have a little time to figure out how to do things right before the Texas heat bakes us in our own home.

We had the sales people in today with a hard sell of a 3 ton 16 SEER air-source system to replace our 2.5 ton, 8 SEER antique, along with adding radiant barrier, 21 inches of sprayed insulation and a variety of required changes thanks to our old air-handler being a 'pancake unit' in a space too small for a higher SEER air handler. Even after the all the great discounts that of course were going to run out any day now, this was an $11.5K job. I got them to price a 13 SEER system that used a pancake air-handler for slightly more than half this price.

Okay, these were higher prices than I expected, but they had the interesting effect of decreasing the price difference between a high SEER system and a ground-source heat pump. They also got me thinking I was seeing some questionable things in the sales pitch, such as simply bumping the existing 2.5 ton condenser up to 3 tons because they don't deal in 2.5 ton systems, not doing any analysis like manual J, manual D, etc.

After some quick self-education after they left (including a lot of reading on this site), I came to the conclusion I was going about this all wrong. First of all, some slightly hand-waved calcs I did seemed to suggest that my current 2.5 ton system may already be oversized for my house (it's only 1260 sq.ft. of air-conditioned space) and rather than buying a 3 ton system I should actually be making my house otherwise efficient first, so I can move down to a 2 ton system. The irony of this is that the radiant barrier and thick insulation the salesmen were trying to sell me along with the 3 ton system are likely among the steps I need to avoid buying a 3 ton system.

So, here is my request: Please tell me what kind of specialist I need to hire to come in, do the work to determine what my load is now, what things we could do to get it down to the 2 or even 1.5 ton level first, before buying a system, and confirm that we've achieved this goal after we have the work done. I truly suspect doing this could drop the prices enough that we could get a ground-sourced system or a solar system at something close to the kind of prices they quoted me for the 16 SEER system, after the 30 percent tax credit is factored in. Also, what sort of accrediting body or association membership should I be looking for this specialist to have?

Hi and welcome,

The first step would be to get a quality energy home audit. A hvac contractor can use that info to do load calc for your home. In my area the super efficient air to air is only hundreds less than geo.
Eric

You are on the right track now. Find someone who isn't trying to sell you something (edit: obviously this means beyond the initial recommendation).

The HVAC guy should have NATE certification.   NATE has several areas of expertise.  See http://www.natex.org/hvac_hvacr/cert_kates.html for details.

 

You are absolutely right to be skeptical about the estimate you received.  Since your old system was keeping you cool, it wasn't too small.   Replacing it with something bigger after adding foam insulation and the thermal barrier really doesn't make any sense.  Many HVAC guys take the bigger is better approach.  It keeps them from getting calls of the house being too warm.  However, bigger doesn't handle the humidity removal as well as a right sized unit would.  Also, a right sized unit is more economical during installation and long term running costs.

 

As a hvac contractor for over 25 years ,you are wise to question the sales pitch. By no means go larger unless you are planning for future expansion.I am going to disagree about NATE. NATE is like Mr Goodwrench. There are plenty of more qualified contractors and technicians than belong to NATE. I do not condemm the organization and the classes are very educational for people entering the trade. NATE has been around for only a few years and some of us have been in the trade for a lot longer (myself 30 years plus). Addressing the exterior envelope of the building is a smart move. Remember ventilation is as important as energy savings.

Posted By EricTheFred on 16 Jun 2011 02:13 AM


We had the sales people in today with a hard sell of a 3 ton 16 SEER air-source system to replace our 2.5 ton, 8 SEER antique, along with adding radiant barrier, 21 inches of sprayed insulation and a variety of required changes thanks to our old air-handler being a 'pancake unit' in a space too small for a higher SEER air handler. Even after the all the great discounts that of course were going to run out any day now, this was an $11.5K job. I got them to price a 13 SEER system that used a pancake air-handler for slightly more than half this price.

Okay, these were higher prices than I expected, but they had the interesting effect of decreasing the price difference between a high SEER system and a ground-source heat pump. They also got me thinking I was seeing some questionable things in the sales pitch, such as simply bumping the existing 2.5 ton condenser up to 3 tons because they don't deal in 2.5 ton systems, not doing any analysis like manual J, manual D, etc.

So, here is my request: Please tell me what kind of specialist I need to hire to come in, do the work to determine what my load is now, what things we could do to get it down to the 2 or even 1.5 ton level first, before buying a system, and confirm that we've achieved this goal after we have the work done. I truly suspect doing this could drop the prices enough that we could get a ground-sourced system or a solar system at something close to the kind of prices they quoted me for the 16 SEER system, after the 30 percent tax credit is factored in. Also, what sort of accrediting body or association membership should I be looking for this specialist to have?

Eric,

You're a little out of my service area but I'll see what I can do to help here.  (I'm in Gainesville)  Not quite sure what you mean by a pancake unit.  Is it installed in the attic with access thru a drop down door?  Both brands I carry, American Standard and Lennox can fit in a fairly small attic space with a little planning.  If installed in the attic, I'd question the integrity of the ductwork.  Unless the ducts are sealed and insulated well, you'll lose all that expensive cold air before it reaches your rooms. 

I'd definitely request a manual J and get an evaluation on your ductwork if the quote is to reuse them.  My experience working in the DFW area is that many of the systems are sized from the curb and thrown together at the least possible cost. 

Insulation upgrades would be a definite step in keeping your utility bills down, might want to wait until the new HVAC is installed so the company doesn't have to work in deep insulation. 

NATE is not a guarantee of good workmanship.  We are NATE certified but all it boils down to is studying for a test IMHO.   Additionally, if all the parts on your interior install are 25 years old and the quote does not address upgrading the plenums and ducts, it's unlikely that you will receive all the benefits that you have paid for.

If you go with the geo, a poorly designed and installed duct system will not allow the system to heat and cool your home efficiently.  Geo is possible in the city depending upon your lot size and city regulations. 

Thanks everyone for your responses.  I've decided to look for recommendations for an energy audit. It would be nice to find a PE who does independent consulting on HVAC, but an HVAC contractor who does audits on the side is fine if I can verify their reputation somehow. I think I may try looking on Angie's List.

Texas Cooler: Concerning the 'pancake' airhandler, I'm just using the term that the technician who located the refrigerant leak used. As you guessed, it's a flattened out version of an airhandler that fits in a short, wide space above the bathtub, like you usually see in apartment housing.

I actually had all the ductwork replaced a year ago when I discovered the reason we couldn't heat the house at that time was that the cheapie plastic air ducts the builder used were literally falling apart, so that much we have covered. The first thing I did when we started having trouble this year was go back up and make sure some connection hadn't come loose. I couldn't find anything.

Acwizard: You mentioned ventilation. One thing I am personally suspecting is insufficient ventilation in the attic. I know there's DOE studies that say attic fans aren't a good idea because they suck cool air out of the house, but I think I could add more soffit vents or something.

Attic fans can actually increase the moisture level in the home and attic.

Some utilities subsidize energy audits. Alas, this the best TXU does: http://www.txu.com/en/residential/energy-savings-solutions/home-energy-audit-project.aspx

ETF,
The reason you might get a 3 ton in the high efficiency unit (where 2.5 tons is indicated) is that no manufacturer (that I'm aware of) is offering a 2 stage 2.5 ton unit yet.
I'm not so gung ho on independant energy auditors. While I'm sure there are good ones few warranty design.
Jonr mentioned avoiding someone trying to sell you something and that is impossible. Some will sell you hvac and some will sell you an energy analysis, but all are selling.
You want the person you employ to install the hvac system to "own" the design and be responsible for the performance. If you get 3 + estimates, then you will have designs to compare.

if you want to enter the world of doing your own load calculation, you can check different insulation values and such with the click of a mouse. You might find that very little needs to be done to cut your load by 10% or you might find it's cheaper to close your blinds.

As far as finding a good contractor our shoppers list might help. Usually IGSHPA certification is what you might look for in a geo guy, but like Nate it is no indication of anything other than the ability to pass a test (and pay $100s of dollars).

Good Luck,
Joe

Actually, Joe, there are free lunches. If ETF lived in the Oncor service area in Texas, one call would get him a free energy audit. Because many utilities provide free or subsidized audits, you'd be an idiot not to call or point your browser at your friendly local utility first. To say that auditors don't warrant their design is plenty dumb as well. Many show up with the weather stripping, caulk and gaskets to do minor fixes on the spot: http://www.slate.com/id/2245899/ The rest simply catalog what's wrong with your house, what it would cost to correct it and how much you would save if you did. If this service constitutes a "design," it is a pretty obvious one. In some cases the payback is ridiculously short. $500 gets ETF 10 inches of cellulose in his attic, or R30, on top of what's already there. I got $10 says it is the best $500 he could spend.

While the middle class has to win the utility lottery to get the kind of service that CTEnergy provides, low-income folks get it in all 50 states. A family of 4 earning $25k/yr or less qualifies in Michigan for free weatherization work, direct payments of utility bills AND reduced utility rates. If you are an unemployed autoworker you'd be crazy not to start here: http://liheap.ncat.org/profiles/Michigan.htm or call 1-800-292-5650

That is not a free lunch. It is lunch on the backs of hardworking people like myself. Let us not call a spade by any other name, it is a spade.
Eric

Like those geothermal tax credits - except that audits and sealing are typically a much better return on the taxpayers dollar.

Spot on, Jonr. Let them freeze in the dark, unless the federal teat in question is the one I suckle.

Let me also be clear that I was doing geothermal and making a living prior to any incentives, and I will continue to do so after obama care robs every other program to pay for even more people who won't work for a living.  Charity and help begins at home and in the faith of your choice.  What? No family or faith?  Your teat should be suckling dry should it not?  Feel sorry for people give them 1/2 your income not mine.
Eric

A principled man like you would refuse to take work then if the customer were claiming the tax credit, right? Government work, commercial work,why debase your values by accommodating government giveaways? What's this? The world isn't black and white when someone is handing you green?

Tax credits and incentives are a far cry from your free lunch. In my world it is black and white and if you see it differently we should agree to dis agree and leave it at that. In my opinon atlas has allready begun to shrug, and I really am John Galt. So do not look to me for any more asistance, it will not be forthcoming. I sleep well at night and hope that you do as well, even if we are opposed.
Eric

Back to Eric. This would be non-standard, but consider adding a couple of 1 ton, 25 SEER mini-splits and use the existing air handler fan just to circulate air around the house. Mini-splits can make zoned cooling (ie, bedroom is cooled but the rest of the house isn't at night) possible for additional savings. Ie, figure < 1/2 the operating costs of the 13 SEER options.

Don't recall using a "free lunch" comment.
If someone wants to give me job parameters and assign performance warranties else where, I will bid the job. It will include a page of disclaimers.

I simply suggest that the installer be on the hook for performance as install has the biggest impact on out come.
Energy auditors do not work for free, whether sucking on my childrens money or the customer's, they are selling a product and trying to extract dollars for a service many hvac companies do for little or free during a design. To insist otherwise is to suggest there is only one "right" way to do a job (or save money). I don't believe that is true either.

Someone who is 5 figures deep into a hvac system is going to look first (and sue first) the folks that collected thousands, not the "free auditor".

I also do not recall ever suggesting one not improve the envelope, in fact it was part of a presentation I made yesterday morning.

Problem with ASHP mini splits is they are not inexpensive, seldom out perform geo and no longer qualify for much tax credits. Geo may be a much better buy in the tax credit context.

j

No, Joe, energy auditors don't work for free. Utilities pay part or all of their fees because a. helping customers cut consumption is cheaper than building more generating plants; b., state governments are leaning on them to clean up emissions.

No, Joe, hvac contractors do not do an energy auditor's job unless they show up with blower doors, smoke pencils and infrared cameras.

Frankly, I don't get your liability point. Eric still needs a replacement AC even after he makes his house much more efficient. That contractor would do a manual j, one hopes, size and install the unit properly and stand behind his work. The only difference is the unit in question will be smaller.

Yes, Joe, a 30 percent tax credit applied to a $20k geo install is a lot of savings. But the point is not what you save but what you spend, or $14k in this case. If an auditor can cut that figure in half through a combination of envelope improvements and smaller hvac, I'd call it $500 well spent. Then again, you'd call it a lost sale.