Replies from Geo Home-owners would be very helpful. Thanks.

I -diy approach, < $1000 + own time for 5 Ton unit
a. < 1 year payback for DIY install ( am NOT a hvac residential pro, but do do aircraft environmental control systems)
b. parts just sitting in the shop picked up at garage sales and 'deals', waiting for some productive use
c. note: have my own backhoe and cable tool rig for other reasons, so very low install costs DIY

II> typical $30,000 'pro' instll
a. very high power or other fuel costs
b. more $$ than you know what to do with?

III. If you buy the tools for DIY, you will still be ahead and have lots of new knowledge and a bunchof keen tools

Propane on the east coast currently wholesales for .70 a gallon.  The price gap between on road deisel, off road deisel, and home heating oil is less than .25.  The federal excise tax for on road deisel fuel is over a dollar a gallon.  Round here the concept of heating your home with a market controlled commodity has run it's course.  Electricity is regulated, it is not a commodity.
Eric

New home was designed to be superinsulated, for very low heat demand (climate zone 6), and would have a new well anyway for domestic water use. Well depth needed for house use likely would support at least the heat pump size that would be needed. It turned out to support 3 tons, vs 2 actually installed, so no extra drilling costs were incurred.

Forced warm air distribution of heat was chosen anyway, so reversibility of heat pump for summer A/C was a "free" extra.

Low annual heating/cooling cost.

I went with geo because I was building a new house off grid. Were getting most of our power from hydro and some from solar.

We found out we would need 2 mini split so we passed on that.
Some HVAC brands use a heater on the compressor.
With the yard already messed up from construction we felt it was worth the extra money for geo.

...... would be the o. p. savings for me.

The Q & A section reads: Q. Don't geothermal systems make the electric bill higher?

A. Yes the do, but the additional electric cost will be much lower then the gas, the oil or propane bill you used to have.

What say you?

Electricity is regulated, it is not a commodity.

Not quite following your point on that. Electricity is bought, sold and traded like a commodity, in fact, it is pretty much considered as such.

BTW, the FET on diesel has been about a quarter for more than a decade now and East Coast propane wholesales for twice that price - more like $1.50 - $1.60.

So, was your geo decision based on market pricing at the time, or the concept of someone/something exercising undue "control" over markets?

In Delaware the rates that the electric providers can charge for the product are controlled/regulated by the states electric utility commision. They do not allow rate changes without a full review, and have done so very infrequently=stable non-market fluctuation pricing.

The scenario that I gave you for oil and propane reflect that it is a free market product. That means that the sellers/suppliers charge what ever the market will bear, regardless of taxes attached or not. Here several suppliers ran the pricing up and rather than the smaller companies growing based on price, they followed suit.

I do not fault them for what they did, but it is my/your choice not to purchase the product.

In Delaware the rates that the electric providers can charge for the product are controlled/regulated by the states electric utility commision.

Okay, so you made your decision based on electric rates being more stable than other fuels because of regulation?

Old home that had 20 yr old oil forced air, but we heated primarily with wood with some help from a solar air heater. Circumstances made wood not an option any more.

Switch to geo due to:

1) economics-my research showed geo to be about the least expensive way to heat my house in my area
2) fuel price outlook on EIA and NYSERDA web sites showed the price of electricity to be less volatile and more likely to increase at a slower rate than oil or propane
3) next to wood (which I felt good about) geo is way more environmentally friendly than oil, propane, or coal heat even when you consider inefficiencies in the grid electricity required to run the geo system. 100% solar heat at my place isn't realistic or I'd have explored that too.
4) found a great installer who convinced me the geo system he quoted should work as designed and have about a 7 yr payback.
5) we're about 12 years out from retirement. If we decide to move then, the geo heat may make the difference between having an old house that is easily sold or not. If we stay, we'll have a retirement house with low heating costs.
6) the bonus of geo supplying a little over half of our hot water, and AC when needed.

Furnace and AC unit need replaced anyway.  Was looking at ~$12k for a new furnace and air-exchange HP (total including install).  Geo was quote ~$20k, with 30% tax credit took price to $14k.  We live in the boonies and rely on propane for heat to the tune of ~$3500/year.  With the tax credit and not having to buy propane anymore, the geo will pay for itself in < 5 years.  That's why I'm having mine installed.

Thanks for posting. Comments like yours are very helpful to others who are considering geo

ditto

Why I didn't go with Geo, though I very seriously considered it.

The system was expensive - even though I planned on doing the excavating and loops myself, and possibly much of the rest of the work. Rough estimate was in the $14,000 range, though I might have managed to get that down a bit. The tax credit would not apply since I don't pay enough in taxes to take advantage of it. The need for a back up system was an added cost, especially since I did not want to have an indoor wood stove.

The geo system looked as if it was going to double my electric bill. I based that estimate on what a neighbor who installed a system said his electric bill increased. It was a huge savings for him since he also used air conditioning, and he lives in an old farmhouse. I don't use air conditioning at all, and did not want to increase my energy usage and costs.

The heat and hot water system I did install, cost me just under $6,000. and I am projecting my annual propane usage at about 300 gals at a cost of $560 ( we will see what it actually turns out to be in a few months). Since the system is hydronic radiant, it does give me the option of coming up with some kind of DIY alternative way to heat the water.

Rosilinda,
You prolly made the right choice that geo was not for you. My mantra, even as a pro is that geo is not for eveyone. If I could heat my home to my comfort level, for 500.00 ish a year in propane I would not have bothered installinf geo for myself.

Someone like you who was lusting after a net zero consumption or other goals, whether it is motivated by economics or ideology would make a different choice in regard to geothermal. Thanx for posting.
Eric

- Old home (built 1954) with oil/HW baseboard heat and
minimal capacity central A/C (retrofitted in mid 1970's)

- Oil furnace and A/C in urgent need of replacement

- Fuel oil prices at $4.50/gal and climbing (summer '08),
with projected heat, hot water, A/C cost > $6000/yr.

- Smelly oil, chimney soot, noisy burner, noisy A/C unit,
utility room unsuitable for anything but dirty furnace.

Geo retrofit -- including all-new ductwork, remove old
A/C ducts and baseboard radiators, remove oil furnace
and indoor oil storage tank ...along with the oil stink.

Net changes: Instantly cash-flow-positive. Instant major
improvement in temperature comfort, odors, and noise.
Converted a dingy utility room into a pleasant workshop.

Total cost: About double that of replacing oil furnace and A/C,
i.e., an incredible bargain ...and yes, a great investment, with
a guaranteed ROI of $3k-$5k/year -- compared to oil heat.

"Not everything that counts can be counted;
not everything that can be counted counts."
- Albert E.

Posted By Looby on 31 Dec 2011 12:18 PM


- Smelly oil, chimney soot, noisy burner, noisy A/C unit,
utility room unsuitable for anything but dirty furnace.

Are you sure your old furnace had a little bit of a smell??

Seriously, and related to this, and not really a reason that caused us to go with a geo unit, but a nice plus we discovered after having it is:

• No oil smell at all in my cellar.  There was always some with the old furnace.
• No smell of furnace exhaust.  There always was a little bit of an exhaust smell when my old furnace 1st fired up even though there were no cracks in the heat exchanger or any leakage I ever found (or any CO problem).
• I used to be able to see dust in the air from the ducts, when the furnace ran.  My wife and I always had allergy issues in the winter.  With the duct replacement and the filtration in the new geo unit, it's like having a whole house air filter running. 
• The air is not getting dried out by the heating system.  I did have a whole house humidifier installed with the geo system, but it rarely needs to be used.
• And the system is super quiet, unlike the oil furnace it replaced, or even the multiple fans we had to run to move air around when heating with wood.
  

So, overall, the air quality in the house is much improved with the geo system.  Actually, it's a night and day difference.  The house feels like it's still summer out, air quality wise at least.

I didn't choose geo because my new house is small and efficient enough to be heated and cooled by a one ton mini split. Joe Ami notes correctly that not everyone can build new these days. Happily I know the difference between an investment and an expense.

Posted By toddm on 31 Dec 2011 05:28 PM
Happily I know the difference between an investment and an expense.

I sincerely questions that.
Paying for a conventional heating system is an expense. You don't have a choice, you need it and don't save anything. While geo it has higher upfront cost, yes the principle amount is gone (although some would argue that the home value increases), so assume 100% depreciation. Assume you pay $10000 more than a conventional system. Now the operational savings are so high that you recover your principle investment within 5 years. So after 5 years you have recovered your principles, plus now you annual savings in the range of 20% of your original investment for the life of the system.
More if propane prices go up, which I would be willing to bet on. In your mind a traditional investment would assume that your principle always stays (you should talk to some stock investors to rethink that), and even if true, gives you a return profit.
Now I would argue that it does not matter if I save $2000 or make $2000 profit each year, it still means I have $2000 more in my pocket. Because of that, geo is an investment, not an expense.

There is no doubt the price of propane will increase, as will all heating fuels, but wont the price of electric also increase? Of course it will, so you will still have that electric bill to to run the geo system. Just how much electric does a geothermal system use? Is there some kind of rule of thumb, X number of kWh/ per ton?

-Rosalinda