First, I have 3 Waterfurance units in my home, two of which are Synergy 3, one of which locks out when cooling is called for, terrible at heating water compared to my other Synergy 3, and hasn't  worked right from between a year to the full time I've had it.

I live in a suburb a little northwest of Chicago, and the problem unit is a WaterFurnace Synergy 3, model number RTV046B110NLT.

It and the other two furnaces are connected to a closed loop field, 17 vertical wells approximately 110-120 feet each).

The symptom we'll focus on for the moment is the "lo pressure" light blinks, compressor will run when trying to cool for about 20 seconds, and then locks out.

The dealer over the past year has replaced, at the suggestion of WaterFurnace Technical support:

The circuit board
The circuit board again
The solenoid valve
The thermostatic expansion valve
Removing and reinstalling the TXV because someone at WaterFurnace after-the-fact decided a filter dryer was needed

WaterFurnace's new solution after the TXV repair didn't work last Friday?  Replace the TXV again!

After over a year of this crap, poor performance in producing hot water (my other Synergy at 1 ton more capacity heats a 50 gallon tank of water with no draw on the load in minutes, where this one takes hours), massive amounts of uncompensated man-hours for my dealer, many hours of MY time, a massive electric bill for winter operations (offset by the fact that it won't run at all in the summertime), and the stench of solder in my house, I'm a step away from using my attorney to get WaterFurnace to jut replace this unit, as well as compensate me for higher bills, my dealer for their time, and some pain and suffering thrown in.  I previously posted here that I'd talk to the press; now I'd only do so on the advice of my attorney.

I understand there's a representative here on-site for Water Furnace, and I'm willing to be decent about things here.  Jim is the most recent technical support person that my dealer's spoken to at Water Furnace who suggested the additional replacement of the THV.  If anyone has any suggestion for me, or WaterFurnace, please do let me know.  I'd like to see it fixed, but I just want something that works.

lev,

Your contractor did contact us yesterday and we discussed options with them. Did they discuss these options with you?

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I just spoke to my contractor. They didn't speak with WaterFurnace yesterday; they spoke with WaterFurnace on Friday, August 26. They waited on hold 30 minutes to be told ONE option; replace the TXV again.

If there are other options, please post them here. I want the community AND the internet search engines to see what you're willing to do for a unit that's had countless man-hours poured into a WaterFurnace problem that the company won't fix... or hasn't made good on until now.

Be sure to share the fix on this forum. People like myself that specify WaterFurnace are really interested in seeing resolution of this problem.

Posted By lev on 29 Aug 2011 06:03 PM

TRemoving and reinstalling the TXV because someone at WaterFurnace after-the-fact decided a filter dryer was needed

If anyone has any suggestion for me, or WaterFurnace, please do let me know.  I'd like to see it fixed, but I just want something that works.

I have a suggestion; get another repairman to look at it.
Fresh set of eyes would help and your tech is casting blame where it may not belong (it is routine to replace filter drier whenever ref. circuit is open).
Your attorney will want another technicians appraisal of the situation as well.

Best guy to ask would be the WF district rep, but unfortunately, threatening attorney will not expediate help from WF as every move may have to go through legal now.

SWAG:
I don't think a new heat pump will help.
I think you have a waterflow problem......I'm wondering if there is a conflict when other units run on the same loop field.
I'm suspicious that problem is intermittant (certainly most techs could tell if solenoids and txv's work before changing them). That would be consistant with a missing backflow preventer or something that interferes with loop flow to that unit when others operate.........or inadequate GPM when upstream systems are running.

I am not a WF dealer.
I find their products well put together.
I think their business model raises the perception of responsibility when one of their customers (dealers) screws up.
I prefer the support of a local distributor.
I am interested in the outcome (solution) to your problem.

I think it is unreasonable to threaten attorney based soley on the findings of one technician or company (if that is what you are doing). Agreement that unit is a lemon from a competitor would add creedence to a complaint. Or if you haven't persued this route, it might resolve your problem if something is found that someone else missed.

FWIW most "nightmare problems" are not a problem with the hardware, it is usually a problem in the meatware.


Good Luck,
joe

Alton, that's my intent. From my perspective, WaterFurnace demonstrates disdain for both its customers and its dealers when there are problems.

As a customer, it's obvious. I have something that doesn't work, and WaterFurnace continually demonstrates they don't stand behind their products when something goes wrong.

I can't recommend, given my experience so far, that any professional represents WaterFurnace as a dealer. WaterFurnace does not compensate their dealers for warranty work. I know from my work in IT for another company in the past that Lennox handles recurring problems much better, typically offering or agreeing to replace customer's equipment after three or more repairs fail to resolve a problem. With a little bit of google work, I just found that back on November 1, 2010, Lennox signed an agreement with Tetco to distribute Tetco geothermal products and software to Lennox dealers. If I were an HVAC contractor looking to get into GeoThermal today, I'd start and end with Lennox.

To be fair, my other two WaterFurnace units have worked without a problem. I can't tell whether or not they actually save me any energy because of the poor performance of this unit. My electric consumption for January was over 9,000 Kwh. That is NOT saving me money; it's one of the reasons why, if my furnace is not repaired or replaced to my liking soon, I'll be bringing an attorney into this.

My dealer isn't even the installing dealer. The installer was specified by my architect when my house was built, and by the time I realized what a sham they were, there was nothing I could do about it. The builder will never work with that company again either. The dealer I have now is great, and really does not deserve to lose his shirt supporting my equipment when WaterFurnace does not seem to support them.

Joe, the unit with the problem is closest to the field. While it fails to provide first stage heat (water to water) properly, it seems to do well with second stage (water to air) and third stage (electric to air). I've also shut off the other systems and the unit still shows the exact same symptom. Do you still think there's an issue with the flow given the second stage works properly?

I'm perfectly willing to have the WaterFurnace representative here. I've had Dave Buss on premise before looking at this exact unit several years ago, and it's still not working right. I'm quite willing to have someone else look at the unit, so long as I can invite someone from my current dealership to be present at the same time.

I would have been a lot less combative a year ago. I'll agree the products seem well built. I just need WaterFurnace to demonstrate that they know how to diagnose and repair a problem when something goes wrong.

I work in IT, and I'm familiar with support issues often being the fault of a person. We have a saying... PEBKAC. Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair. I also interviewed three companies before deciding on the one I did to finish my work and clean up after the previous hacks. I did my homework, and they are really good. I've referred them many times, and everyone has been impressed with their knowledge. Could they be wrong? Certainly. Do I believe they are? Nope. Am I willing to prove it? Hell yeah!

The latest TXV arrived at the shop late yesterday. Given that the calls were placed Friday morning, should have been shipped out by end of day Friday, and WaterFurnace is 200 miles away from my dealer, product should have arrived Monday.

edit: Just got the Fedex tracking number for the TXV.  It was picked up from Fort Wayne on Monday at 5:34PM, so yes, WaterFurnace failed to get the part on the way Friday.  Still for them, this is an improvement.

"While it fails to provide first stage heat (water to water) properly, it seems to do well with second stage (water to air)"

That discription of operation is not how I understand the synergy unit to work. I don't think they switch modes when they switch stages!??! Can the dip switches be arranged in a way that that unit can operate that way?

ChrisJ

lev,

We have just spoken with your contractor and they have provided us with additional information. At this point, we feel it would be in everyone’s best interest to end the communication on this thread. If you would like to discuss your concerns with us, please feel free to contact our Consumer Relations staff.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

WF_Inc, Please get back to us after the problem is solved. That will reassure people like myself that have been specifying your products for many years.

ChrisJ, the Synergy can not heat water and air at the same time. It can run the blower while water is being heated to deliver humidity and circulate air. If others with Synergy experience would like to chime in on that, be my guest.

I planned on not posting here until morning, but found I couldn't sleep without responding here first. I am somewhat uncomfortable discussing my concerns with someone who isn't an officer of the company. I expect if I call and talk to customer service, I'm going to get the same treatment that my dealer has received, and whoever I talk to will not be authorized to replace my unit should this morning's TXV replacement not leave me with a fully functional furnace.

So for the moment, I will continue to report here on what exactly is done here tomorrow, and ask specific questions of the technician that any of you would like to know, in terms of readings, pressures, levels, dip-switch settings, or anything else you might want to review. Also, if you want any photographs, please let me know what you'd like to see.

The technician should be starting between 10 and 11am eastern time (9-10am local time).

After that, if the latest TXV makes everything work, I will say so here and gladly put and end to this thread.

We'll worry about the if-not after the new valve is in.

I do thank people for their questions, comments, expertise, and time.

Sounds like the "keep replacing parts until it works" plan. I'm surprised that a good system (example, the controller logs the data it has and every event) and a good tech (with additional flow, temp, current, pressure logging equipment) don't have so much instrumentation that the problem isn't obvious. They should be able to tell you that at 5:31pm yesterday, the water temp was 100F, the COP was 3.2 and the compressor turned off at 5:35pm. Sure, the data might have to be uploaded to WF for analysis. Might even be a special instrumentation kit that gets loaned out for difficult cases.

Water flow problem still possible, but it is a SWAG based on very little information. Stages vs function are 2 different events you can heat water or air in either stage 1 or 2, electric auxiliary would't be affected by water flow. If water had a higer delta T or always called for second stage this still adds up, not to mention you commented on very high electric bills last winter which could indicate much aux. use, but what are we comparing the bills to?

I'll say it a little less gently: someone who changes a TXV and not a filter drier is not following good trade practice. I am not as confident in your guys geo knowledge as you are.
Waterfurnace does have labor allowances for their dealers on repairs during the established period. Folks are able to purchase extended warranties.
Companies paying for warranty work on their products also generally have some say in who services it.

So the other information before us is you are insisting on a technician who may or may not be trained on their product, who may or may not be a dealer, who may or may not know geo, who doesn't follow good trade practice........has he brought in a district rep yet? It's not clear to me whether he even tested some of these parts before he changed them.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just suggesting the path you're on is not necessarily the most conducive to a happy result, nor is it how I would build a case for suit if that's where this ends up.

Jonr in spite of lots of test tools, most systems don't have the ability to plug in a diagnostic monitor. Most systems do have some diagnostics however. Unfortunately most are akin to "check engine", as a "low pressure" fault could be caused by many things.
While the roots are water flow, air flow, load side water temperature and refrigerant pressure each of these could be caused by different things such as low ewt, plugged filter, plugged fan coil, failed motor, bad fan relay, bad flow center, bad txv, bad thermistor or pressure switch, load side water inadvertantly cooled by failed/sticky reversing valve.....etc.
Most common would be water flow from ground loops or bad switch/sensor. Somewhat less common would be failure of all the parts mentioned by OP and out of box failure of a txv.
Measuring a track record of EWT's is easy enough, but a failing micro relay that works most of the time is harder to monitor. What your test tool might show is plunges in measured value while still not explaining why. Best bet is to employ experienced technicians familiar with the product.

j

Posted By jonr on 01 Sep 2011 09:24 AM
Might even be a special instrumentation kit that gets loaned out for difficult cases.

If there is such a kit, my dealer hasn't been offered it's use, nor made aware of it's existence. Have any dealers been given such a kit to use in the past? WF_Inc, it's safe to say you're still monitoring the thread. No answer on your part leaves the assumption no such kit or data is available. An affirmative answer would be nice, but begs the question why it wasn't been offered to my dealer before this. Still, if it exists, you should say. Otherwise, you create fact from the impression that WaterFurnace devices are incapable of advanced diagnostics or data tracking, even with a special kit. So if you can, now is the time to speak up.

BTW there is a real simple test for a txv- with gauges hooked up hold temp bulb in hand and watch for change in pressures as it heats up.

joe.ami, auxiliary heat is disabled by the control systems on all three units.  That 9,000 Kwh usage did not come from a single bit of auxiliary heat, or the numbers might well have been higher (given the poor performance of this furnace in water-to-water mode, perhaps not).

The reason that this dealer has my confidence is due to the orignal install company's failure to do a Manual J before construction, causing, among other things, my basement ceiling height to be reduced from 9 feet to as low as 6 feet 8 inches in spots.  Also because of that, I had to pay an additional $10,000 to rebuild all the ceiling heights these jokers ruined.  This company was purchased by someone else, and is now a WaterFurnace GeoPro Master Dealer.   Had they done a Manual J, I would have SAVED money, and perhaps had better airflow throughout my house, AND had the ceiling height I'd planned on.

I talked to several other dealers before choosing this one.  The owner is a straight-shooter who is also a savant when it comes to items like load calculations, and doing things by the book.  He's earned my confidence time and again.  If WaterFurnace supports him less because he doesn't sloppily slam as many wells into the ground as other companies, that's on them.  My service company IS a WaterFurnace dealer, or I never would have gone with them to begin with, and WF_Inc would have stated so in their posts.

The district rep, as I said earlier, was here years ago to see some of the problems.  He seems to have been hiding ever since.  I mentioned Dave Buss earlier in the thread.  He has the opportunity to be part of the problem, or part of the solution.  His absence to-date indicates the former so far.

Posted By joe.ami on 01 Sep 2011 11:21 AM
BTW there is a real simple test for a txv- with gauges hooked up hold temp bulb in hand and watch for change in pressures as it heats up.

Which the technician did before; part of why this current bit of work seems like nothing but wheel-spinning.

First, I would like to formally apologize regarding the TXV.  This one worked in the sense that it appears that water-to-air functions appear to be working correctly.  Given the year of struggles I've had with WaterFurnace over this unit, this a a step forward to a partially-functioning position we've held previously.

The technician installed latest TXV.  We would have tested water-to-water, but my dog started having difficulty breathing and I had to rush her to the clinic.  She's undergoing chemotherapy for lymphoma and they diagnosed her today with pneumonia... some things are just more important even than the long struggle to get things fixed and I wasn't going to watch my dog choke to death so that we could finish today.

What we have now... the status LED that's supposed to blink green is unlit.  The lo-pressure LED blinks red UNLESS the unit is providing a water-to-air function.

I will save water-to-water functions until tomorrow, but after multiple parts, I do seem to be on the road toward full functionality.  Thank you all for your help so far.

Does anyone have any idea why I have the blinking red lo-pressure LED when the unit is idle?

Lev you mentioned 3rd stage (electric to air) as functioning correctly. That would be auxiliary. Now you say it's not turned on.
One reason it is so difficult to troubleshoot via internet is folks only share what they think is important, when they think it's important.
Man D would be what one used to design ducts and have impact on distribution. Man J sizes load and equipment which apparently isn't the problem here. Waterfurnace would not be responsible for poor duct design.

Good Luck,
joe

Joe,

Third stage does function correctly. It's just not called from the control system.

Fine, Manual D. I'm not a professional; never claimed that I was.

My criticism of the poor duct design was that of a "GeoPro Master Dealer" of WaterFurnace's not doing a good job. If WaterFurnace is going to provide dealers with a Premiere tag, that's a form of recommendation. IF so, that endorsement should reflect expertise and professionalism, not just how many units a company sells.

So yes, as a consumer, I do believe that WaterFurnace is ultimately responsible for ALL the work their dealers do, particular when it's new construction. Do you actually feel otherwise?

If an authorized Ford dealer performs bad repair work, or adds third-party modifications that affect the performance or reliability of the vehicle, do you not think that Ford is ultimately responsible for the conduct of their dealers? If it's your truck, I'm betting you'd be on the horn to Ford if someone bearing their name on a dealership made your car into something other than what you ordered after taking your money.

I don't completely disagree, although if you wrote the check out to the installer (vs WF), then he is the one responsible (more like an independent auto repair place that uses some Ford parts).