While summer is not too bad, my customer suffers every time she turns the heat on. Her tounge burns and the skin peels on the roof of her mouth etc.

IAQ guys say they have measured 1000 ppm of unspecified chemical in her air during the winter. I asked her for a summer test next year to rule out red herrings.
She says only occasionally does she have summer reactions and if she primes sink traps et al, it goes away.

They switched to geo (before we met) from propane to try to make her more comfortable, no dice.
They added lots of make up air and a Lennox filter UV lamp assembly which also doesn't help. Nor did HRV.

I'm trying to wrap my head around difference between summer and winter (besides the obvious fresh air ops). We had a very hot summer and they ran air more than opening windows. I can't see any difference between a heat pump running in the summer vs the winter unless the air coil is contaminated and it emits something with the catalyst of heat. The unfortunate thing is the geo was installed in June so we don't know if initially it had a positive impact.
I don't see a connection with drain traps that would be altered during heating vs cooling season.

Their 4 ton open loop MegaTek just got its butt whipped by a power surge and we are looking at a new heat pump financed by taxs credits rebates and insurance money.

My gut suggests we also try to attack what is known about the air (chemical contamination). While we have no filters that boast performance in this area I hoped you folks might have some thoughts. Is there still charcoal filtration out there?
Any ideas?

Joe

Carbon and potassium permanganate filters, ozone when nobody is there, increased air changes and keeping the house positively pressurized (don't allow air to be pulled through the walls) should all be considered. Ducts also get warm in the heating season.

Your IAQ guy says something in the air just not sure what? How is he testing it?

http://www.airadvice.com/products/homeadvice/iaq/
Have you looked at Air Advice, leave the device in a home and it checks for all sorts of contaminants, i have never used one personally but know a lot of people that have and they swear by them. I just don't have enough customers asking for IAQ products no matter how hard I try to educate them. i have been thinking about buying one of these to show people how bad a home can be.

1000 PPM of what!

Has this client been seen by an allergist? Such an individual ought to be able to establish a link between sink traps and symptoms.

How about trying several plug in oil-filled radiator heaters as a temproary / test alternative to ducted hot air

Could it be a simple humidity issue? Client may need RH of 40+ to avoid discomfort.

jonr,
thanks for the filter idea. cust is comfortable outside and other companies had as many as 4 make up air pipes connected (undampered) so the positive pressure and air change thoughts have been tried.
I like your thought on air through walls as well, I'll check to see where returns come from. Customer actually had walls opened up to remove pest waste (mouse poo). Can you think of a reason air drawn through walls would only irritate in winter?

Sky,
IAQ company is airadvice. They apparently can distinguish between allergens, chemicals etc. but not specify particular agent. Further testing has been done, but each possibility must be ruled out individually and testing gets expensive when shooting in the dark.
I have a Dylos particle counter which measures the presence of airborne particles but does not tell you what they are. It is inexpensive and cool. I've been able to demonstrate less "junk" in the air with filtration et al.

Curt, electic heaters don't seem to be a problem for her. She actually has a garage they finished off that she winters in with a ventless propane heater......no problem!

Customer has a history of allergies but these are unfamiliar symptoms. I am entering the fray late, but much has been tried. Hoping our collective brilliance might yield fruit for her.

This is the customer by the way who had "chucklehead heating and cooling" dump a 4 ton open loop into her drain field. Initially we thought installation of her new drain might help, but the symptoms do predate the geo.

lemme know if you guys think of anything else. thanx.
j

A couple of things....

First, if you suspect the 1000 ppm of "unspecified chemical" is causing the problem, the logical step is to move to actual analysis of the air in which an air sample is captured and sent to a lab for identification of the volatile organic components. Obviously, you would want to capture a sample during a time in which the presumed irritant is not present, during a time in which the homeowner thinks it is present, and maybe even try to capture the first rush of air from a duct on startup, in case it carried elevated levels.

Secondly, irritation of the mouth and tongue is not uncommon. It is probably caused by a range of things, including stress. Additionally, they may have seasonal components or may be exacerbated by changes in both temperature and humidity such as you might get when a heating system operates. As such, it wouldn't be the heating system or its operation which is causing it, only something the patient might associate with feeling bad or worse.

One condition in particular, burning mouth syndrome, is highly correlated with menopause and other hormonal changes. Other underlying problems to consider might be diabetes, which can be associated with fungal and bacterial infections of the mouth and tongue.

Joe,

Tongue burning and skin peeling on the roof of her mouth are not allergy symptoms. Nor are they symptoms of larger particle matter, such as allergens. Thus no particle filter, or you reducing the particles, will help.

It sounds to me like a hypersensitivity to a certain chemical, which might be coming from her basement or sewer, and then the forced air system helps to blow around here house.
Turn the fan only on for a day or two. A reason why she is not bothered so much in the summer could be that the chemical vapor is actually pulled out of the air by the condensation on the chilled coil, similar the way you pull humidity out of the air. That then does not happen in the winter in heating mode. If she already has pinpointed it to the sewer, that would be the most obvious clue to go after. Pulling out the walls is unlikely to help.

Note that carbon and potassium permanganate "filters" will remove chemicals - unlike a HEPA particle filter. No chance of some other thing - like food or water?

It may be counter intuitive, but if there is an active device pulling air out (bathroom fan, gas water heater, etc), no amount of passive vents to the outside will bring the pressure to ambient. That would take an active device (fan pushing inward).

I've had VOCs (fresh paint or similar) cause headaches and a tiny bit of ozone (with nobody home) cured it quickly. The difference was obvious just from the smell.

jon and doc,
agian I appreciate all thoughts. These folks have totaled their savings trying to be happy in their home I'm passing along all suggestions.
j

If the tongue and the roof of the mouth are the main culprits, that usually indicates something they put into their mouth, unless she is a mouth breather secondarily to a stuffed up nose (allergies). Food or water? Are they on a well?
Sometimes it is cheaper and better for your health to sell the house and get a new one.

One more clue today, asked about changes when we had customer put in real drain to the pond (vs dumping into drain field as orignal chuckleheads did) and was told prior to that summer was no better in the house.
That seems to suggest a sewerage/bacteria connection.

The symptoms seem more consistant with poisoning than allergy. Have her running the blower without heat or cool to look for more clues.

j

The first step should be to idenify the chemical or chemicals in the air when she is having a reaction. Contact an industrial hygienist. They will have all of the test instrumentation to verify any chemicals and will be able to point you in the right direction.

Again cost for identification tests have been nearly prohibitive or at least have been so open ended that they are put off by the idea......further they are now having to repair or replace a poorly installed Mega Tek.
So while it would make it easier to know exactly what we are fighting, I am only offered what clues we've shared. Since there is a medical issue involved, to some degree I'd like some of the answers to come from them not me.....
Doesn't mean I don't want to help, I just know their budget is limited and I don't want to pay for mis-steps along the way.

The fact that relief was found in the summer after geo drain was moved from septic would seem to support a sewerage problem, but the symptoms were present before heat pump was drained into septic system.
Doc may be on to something with the condensate on the fan coil helping. We already know water in the traps helps when symptoms show up........Maybe I need a water filter

Again cost for identification tests have been nearly prohibitive or at least have been so open ended that they are put off by the idea....

Of course. That's why they want to avoid finding out what "1000 ppm of unspecified chemical" is in their home environment.

Posted By ICFHybrid on 01 Nov 2011 08:35 AM

Again cost for identification tests have been nearly prohibitive or at least have been so open ended that they are put off by the idea....

Of course. That's why they want to avoid finding out what "1000 ppm of unspecified chemical" is in their home environment.

I don't get your point. Are you being snide?

These are folks who have literally spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to make a gal comfortable in her home.
I asked them to identify a the chemical and they said after trying it was cost prohibitive.
I am in no position to dispute "air advice", but I have never detected anything but pet odor in their home, nor have the other 3 occupants.

I'm not a doctor or chemist.
I do not know if something is being exaggerated, but thought some one might have some ideas for filtration or why summer would be more comfortable than winter. If you don't; be snide somewhere else.

Joe,

I'm consulting on a similar issue right now. These can be really tough, especially since they can sometimes be caused by unrelated issues.

Have you had the ducts pressure tested? In the house I'm consulting on, the attic returns used panned joists, so they were sucking in all sorts of contaminants from the attic. A duct blaster test would quickly determine if that was a potentially contributing factor.

There is an article in the sept/oct 2011 issue of Home Energy magazine about these issues as well. The article starts on page 6. Title:"Safe air at home"
Here's a link to the article
http://www.pureenergycoach.com/docs/sterner-safe-air-at-home_home-energy-sept-oct-2011.pdf

I asked them to identify a the chemical and they said after trying it was cost prohibitive.

That is where I begin to get confused. The cost to identify the chemical should be very small compared to the "tens of thousands of dollars" apparently in play.

I'm going to guess that someone had a VOC or similar sensor that gives a ppm reading but doesn't identify it.

Just a thought from left field here...(although I'm not sure how good a thought):
If breathing in the air from a forced air system makes her sick, but electric and propane space heaters don't, and if you are replacing the existing water-to-air unit anyways, how practical in this situation would it be to put in a water-to-water unit and underfloor pex tubing for radiant heat instead?

I suppose there's a big difference in project scope between doing this sort of retrofit for a one story bungalow with an unfinished basement compared to a big McMansion or an old farmhouse. And radiant heat won't help with cooling. But if forced air heating is causing that serious a health impact for this customer, perhaps radiant might be worth considering.

Tinoue, no attic ducts, in fact the family replaced all ducts and replaced propane with heat pump etc, I'll check out the article thanks.
ICF.....stop participating in this thread, looking for ideas not criticism of my customer's approach.
Jonr, you are correct, they count without identifying.
JML, radiant is in the discussion and my customer has had it before and prefers it. Cost is again at issue.

To all- I'm not kidding when I say my customers have busted their budget. They do not wish to leave their home, but are uncertain they can make it comfortable for all within. Lots of folks make choices between health, comfort and budget. There is a delicate dance going on in this home, it'd be neat if we here could scheme up a low dollar solution.

Thanks to all but one for your thoughts.
j