First off - Thanks for reading...

I am in the process of building an addition and wanted to go geothermal  - After alot of research I came to the conclusion that the Earthlinked was my best bang for my buck and proceeded to get quotes.

Much to my surprise I could not get much info - No one would call back, or quote me,

After contacting the company itself they put me in contact with one contractor about 1.5 hours away and here is his quote :

Please keep in mind he took my drawings and said he performed a Manual J - I have not seen it but only his recommendations for the units:

So here is what I come up with for the first floor.
SC-036-1B
AVY-036V
H5-036
CPS-3642
-----------------
$30,526.00

So here is what I come up with for the second floor.
SW-30-1B
AVY-030H
H5-030
CPS-1830
DWM-1836
----------------
$30,526.00

Parts and labor to due the job.
$14,448.00

So the total cost will be.
$75,500.00
 

I currently have a 1080 sq ft house  that I am adding on ( mostly a second floor ) and will be under 2400 sq/ft.  I currently have a 20 year old oil furnace and 1.5 ton central air system

I am concerned with 2 things: 

1 : price - his original quote was 85 grand!
2 : the fact that he is stating I need over 3 tons of cooling for my first floor

I provided drawings and am going to use closed cell foam  for the higher R value -

I currently have NO insulation in some exterior walls ( old house) and only need the 1.5 ton unit - now granted it will only cool down to 80 degrees on consecutive days over 100 in the summer but other then that we are fine.

Can someone please provide me with some feedback? I have put my construction on hold for over 2 months now trying to figure out the route I am attempting to go down, but I am not having much success going this direction and am about to go conventional to save me the headaches.

Thanks for your time

Dave

 

if you did your research here, you would not have concluded a specific brand was the "best bang for your buck". If you read the shoppers guide, it suggest brand is less important than dealer.
You need other opinions, don't worry about one brand.
Let us know the other suggestions.
j

Where are you located? There are lots of questions that come to mind like duct work, what is your plan for insulating exterior walls on 1st level, etc. What can you do to improve your "J"

I'm a builder, not a HVAC guy or geothermal expert, but I just put our system in for 18,300.00 (PARST ONLY)- (DIY). The 6 ton unit will heat/cool 4400 sf. (or should I say hopefully heat), as we just went online SEP/2011. It did a great job cooling for the few times we needed it in SEP, but we kept the propane furnace as an emergency backup in case we lose power or geo fails to heat properly.

5 years ago when I built the house, I freaked out at the 31,000 price tag for a geo install, plus duct work on top of that bid. I installed a conventional high efficiency propane furnace because of the cost and the uncertainty that geo could heat our Michigan home in the winter. After 6 years of escalating propane, we have switched over due mostly to 3 our friends who did so in the last couple of years. We have been to their homes and experienced the warmth for ourselves in February, so we decided to do it.

I had one of my subs from my development team get me a geo-guy on consult and we designed the system together. He came to help set the unit, and meausre the plenum tie in, and go throught the check list for initial startup. We have created a duel fuel system by leaving the propane furnace in place and just putting a back draft damper to close it off when the GEO is in operation.

My advice, keep asking questions, as there are some great guys here who geo experts. In the end you may be better off spending the money to insulate your lower level better and make the new extremely tight so the conventional doesn't run so often, but make that decision with all the data, not just one bid.

If you are doing foam insulation that should really lower your sizing, how long are the loops, how much ductwork are they installing, those numbers seem a bit high, we are about $27,000 for a 3 ton system with ductwork and up, with a house like this i would possibly do a single 5 ton system(just random guess based on their sizing) to save costs from having multiple units and loops and a single 5 ton geothermal system would be half the cost of that system. However if you are putting in a vertical loop that could add to the cost. I think Earthlinked is a direct exchange(refrigerant instead of antifreeze in the ground) I personally have seen many systems like this freeze the ground and in general cause problems if done even slightly wrong. Yes they can be efficient having a lower temperature differential by using refrigerant but if you pull heat out to fast you freeze the ground and make the bore hole have a very inefficient air pocket around the copper after a few years of use.

Where are you located, how much land do you have, why are you set on this manufacturer? Why not WaterFurnace or climatemaster or geocomfort?

If this is a stick-built home and you're considering filling (or nearly-filling) the wall cavities with closed cell foam, you may want to reconsider.

The high-R at center cavity performance gets chewed up pretty badly by the thermal bridging of the studs, and the difference between R12 cellulose and R20 closed cell foam in a 2x4 cavity ends up being only about R2-3 after framing factors. With a 20% framing fraction (typical for 16" on center framing) the cellulose-fill wall comes in at a hair over R10, whereas the closed-cell fill in the same wall is about R12.3. Half-inch XPS is R2.5, and it thermally breaks the studs as well as the center cavity, adding R2.5 to whole-wall performance for a total of R12.5.

Closed cell foam is really great at making an air seal though, requiring much less detailing than rigid foam or sheathing for air-tightness. If you set up exterior furring over the structural sheathing through-screwed to the studs every 24" using 2" chunks of cut up rigid XPS as spacers where it's thorugh screwed, you'd then have a depth guide for spray-foaming the exterior. A 2" exterior shot of closed cell would add ~ R12 to the R10 cellulose-fill wall for a total of ~ R22, and costs about the same as an all closed cell cavity fill. That's a much better bang/buck- a tighter air seal than you'd get with cavity only (which would leave the studwall plates and rim joists untreated), and thermall breaks all of the framing, including the rim-joists. That's literally 2x the R-value for about the same money, trading an inch of foam for some furring and some inexpensive cellulose fill. (If you live in US climate zone 5 or lower you could probably heat & cool such a place with a 2-ton mini-split if you paid attention to air sealing elsewhere and use decent windows.)

The $85KUSD number beyond all reason- don't use that contractor for anything but a target for derision & ridicule. ;-)

For 85 grand of cost adder you could probably super-insulate the entire structure to Net Zero Energy house levels as part of the upper story addition and still have money left over to buy the rooftop photovoltaic solar necessary to make it a true net-zero.

Posted By joe.ami on 23 Oct 2011 09:16 PM
if you did your research here, you would not have concluded a specific brand was the "best bang for your buck". If you read the shoppers guide, it suggest brand is less important than dealer.
You need other opinions, don't worry about one brand.
Let us know the other suggestions.
j

Joe  - I researched water loops vs the refrigerant loops and came to that conclusion based on the ease of use, efficiency and " claimed" return on your investment.

After dealing with no less then 20 contractors who will not even provide me with a quote - I am in agreement that the contractor makes the system. I did have my heart set on a system, but it looks like it is not in the cards - I am running out of time and still call these guys up with no return calls... what a joke!

Posted By morecode on 23 Oct 2011 09:23 PM
Where are you located? There are lots of questions that come to mind like duct work, what is your plan for insulating exterior walls on 1st level, etc. What can you do to improve your "J" 

My advice, keep asking questions, as there are some great guys here who geo experts. In the end you may be better off spending the money to insulate your lower level better and make the new extremely tight so the conventional doesn't run so often, but make that decision with all the data, not just one bid.

I am located in New Jersey - and I agree - I am re-insulating the entire house.

Posted By SkyHeating on 24 Oct 2011 05:09 PM
If you are doing foam insulation that should really lower your sizing, how long are the loops, how much ductwork are they installing, those numbers seem a bit high, we are about $27,000 for a 3 ton system with ductwork and up, with a house like this i would possibly do a single 5 ton system(just random guess based on their sizing) to save costs from having multiple units and loops and a single 5 ton geothermal system would be half the cost of that system. However if you are putting in a vertical loop that could add to the cost. I think Earthlinked is a direct exchange(refrigerant instead of antifreeze in the ground) I personally have seen many systems like this freeze the ground and in general cause problems if done even slightly wrong. Yes they can be efficient having a lower temperature differential by using refrigerant but if you pull heat out to fast you freeze the ground and make the bore hole have a very inefficient air pocket around the copper after a few years of use.

Where are you located, how much land do you have, why are you set on this manufacturer? Why not WaterFurnace or climatemaster or geocomfort?

I thought the same thing - The manual J was apparently performed with my drawings, but when I asked what the R-values he used and he in turn asked me the r-value - so I am currently having zero confidence in the heat gain loss he performed.

I am in New Jersey - I have almost 3 acres and I am not set on any manufacturer - I'd like a geothermal system to get away from home heating oil, as we do not have natural gas or any other systems in our location.

Just to sort something out:
By and large average efficiency, that which is a measure over the long haul vs a snapshot in time amid perfect conditions, varies little between brand and type.
3.5 to 4.
Most any manufacturer has measured greater COP (earthlinked included) but has not "averaged" greater without skewed contributors (i.e. 10 GPM for a 2 ton open loop).

OK - so we have all next week that I have 3 different geothermal contractors ( with 2 different types of systems coming over to provide estimates)

Bosch ( florida Heatpump?) & waterfurnace

I'll keep everyone posted if there is interest...

First guy out was a Bosch dealer - He is recommending (2) 2 ton units ( 1 up and 1 down)

he performed a manual J calc already and is on the ball.

Here is what he has to say:

In doing the heat loss I came up with 48,000 BTU’s

Which would require two of the smallest units made by” Bosch” 14,000 to 30,000

Most of the time they will be running on first stage 14,000 BTU’s

with the spray foam your home would only require a total of 36,000 BTU’s

although the unit size won’t change the increased efficiency will be reflected

in your monthly utility bills.



I should have a quote to you mid week

The units are 2 stage so it seems to work nicely with the house as it will run on the 1st stage most of the time.

Why two 2 ton units instead of a single 4 ton?

so far every hvac contractor has suggested this route - I am guessing since we have a single story house right now and we will be adding a second floor - so the units will be in the basement and attic.

What am I missing? Foam insulation, 36KBTU/H heatloss, 3 ton unit in the basement, ductwork going to the new second floor, preferable zoned. Should be quite reasonable.

I 2nd the motion

Equipment costs for 2 two ton units is likely nearly double that of a single 3 or 4 ton system. Zone board and dampers are MUCH cheaper than a 2nd system. Non-zoned systems may "strand" capacity where it is unneeded much of the year. In other words, a system sized for an upstairs cooling load may be too big for winter, same applies to downstairs heating.

Obviously some care has to be made sizing ductwork, an area many HVAC companies strive to avoid.

I agree - you don't want that equipment in the attic anyways.

I routinely place / relocate air handlers in attics, but only if the attic is unvented and has sprayfoam under sheathing.

Attic locations are quieter than closets, and often can be central for best (shortest) duct runs. Clients who get a closet "back" are generally happy to have it.

I agree, I shouldn't assume that the OP has a vented attic.

I am on the fence with the foam / non vented attic or traditional vented system

I got my next quote back it's roughly 42 grand and has 2 units - I raised the question that I wanted a itimized breakdown to determine the price difference from (2) 2 ton units to a single 4 ton unit and motorized dampers.

I only got a deduct for $2000 for the reduction of one unit. and the add of the MD's

I cant get accurate quotes so far and am having a hard time getting itemized quotes detailing exactly what I am getting -

I am awaiting 2 more quotes later this week / early next week.

wow i have a two story home in pennsytucky right by you and usually slightly colder since i am in the pocono mtn area. and the highest quote i have is 24280 for a water furnace and 21780 for a climatemaster the house is the same size as yours 2441 sq ft. mine is for a single 4 ton zoned unit and those quotes are with wells cheaper with slinkys.