48k in mid MI for heat loss suggests a 3 ton heat pump.

The construction details of adding the second floor maybe what is dictating separate units. 1 field, 2 units, all duct work- 35 to 50K depending on options, local labor rates and conditions.
Most important is a competent contractor then equipment ..... a poorly executed design, installation or service will cost more than something that is 10 or 20% more efficient in the lab.

Hello DJV,

I just saw your post - the first thing that hit me is DX (Earthlink) currently isn't permitted in NJ. According to the company, horizontal copper loops are permitted in NJ but we haven't confirmed that.

Paul Auerbach
Total Green
www.totalgreenus.com

sounds pretty high i would like to see the manual j if i were you over cooling could be bad for the house,

I have been busy with several water geo quotes -

I have had all of them come back 40 - 49 k
Bosch,
Waterfurnace (2)
Carrier is coming out tomorrow.

All are suggesting 4 tons execpt the one WF dealer - he is suggesting 5 tons to keep the electric heat off a bit more often ( split (2) 2.5 Ton units ) He said with the 2.5 ton units the heat will kick on at 17 degerees out side air. With a 2 ton unit we are at 27 degrees.

I have contacted a local well driller since all were estimating the wells neeeded for vertical
Well driller is at 14 grand ( added to the estimates above ) and will do 200 feet per ton . He will do a horizontal loop if someone else designs it... Honestly all geo dealers have stressed the lack of efficiency of a horizontal loop - I am surprised personally with that but it is what it is - all local installers push vertical.

I'm gonna jump in an echo the surprise at the quotes. 4 ton in SE Pennsylvania with boreholes included was $24K for me. Minus the rebate, it couldn't be beat. But I also have to echo the dealer/installer support. I've had a terrible experience, and looking back, I would have gone with the 32K quote from someone else, because the problems have probably cost me several thousand to fix.

Granted you don't have a 2nd story yet (and I'm just throwing this out there), what about sizing it for 1 1/2 times the need for the 1st story only, and plan on zoning the system. As you build up, leave a few "connections" through interior closets, or corners of rooms to supply the 2nd story. A little aux heat every so often isn't a bad thing, not if a bigger system would cost significantly more. It's all about payback over time, IMHO.

A horizontal loop over the season is as efficient as vertical one. Unless you have a very small lot or shallow rock or boulders, there is no reason to prefer a vertical loop over a horizontal one. Seems to speak for a lack of experience if they all push vertical for higher efficiency.

A vertical loop is absolutely more efficient than a horizontal one. That is why twice as much pipe is used in a horizontal loop- so it can deliver as many btus.
Operating cost is therefore about the same for either.
I agree with Doc, while it is technically correct that vertical loops are more efficient, a contractor that pushes for them when horizontals are possible is uninformed at best (or owns their own drill).

So $17.50 per foot for vertical. I think you can do better. Everyone has their own definition of efficiency, with some being "how much profit can I make in x hours?".

Posted By joe.ami on 27 Nov 2011 10:54 AM
..... (or owns their own drill).

Are you kidding ???? Drillers are above reproach !!! 

Posted By jonr on 27 Nov 2011 10:58 AM
So $17.50 per foot for vertical. I think you can do better. Everyone has their own definition of efficiency, with some being "how much profit can I make in x hours?".

Thats about the going rate here in Portland and why we do horizontal loops, we can easily do a 5 ton loop with excavation for less than half the cost when going horizontal vs vertical but I know this can be very specific to the region.

Posted By joe.ami on 27 Nov 2011 10:54 AM
A vertical loop is absolutely more efficient than a horizontal one. That is why twice as much pipe is used in a horizontal loop- so it can deliver as many btus.
Operating cost is therefore about the same for either.
I agree with Doc, while it is technically correct that vertical loops are more efficient, a contractor that pushes for them when horizontals are possible is uninformed at best (or owns their own drill).

Just to clarify, while a horizontal loop needs about 2-3 times as much pipe for the same performance compared to vertical loops, the overall performance is the same for the whole system, at usually half the price. One could be nitpicky to argue that you need a bit more pumping power due to the longer individual loops, but I would also argue that horizontal loops benefit more from preloading during the A/C season and more swing during the season, both from having more volume and higher ground temps. Both loop types usually are design to drop down to 30 F EWT, but the vertical drops faster. OUr horizontal loops are around 40-45F right now, while the vertical ones are already at 35F.

To clarify cost/ft, some discuss drilling only while some discuss drilling, grouting, providing/installing loop, flow center, header, flush etc. Out of context it appears drilling rates vary wildly by over $10/ft but you have to know what is included in that.
In my AO vertical loops cost loosely twice as much/ton.

Posted By DJV on 21 Nov 2011 11:37 AM
I have been busy with several water geo quotes -

I have had all of them come back 40 - 49 k
Bosch,
Waterfurnace (2)
Carrier is coming out tomorrow.

All are suggesting 4 tons execpt the one WF dealer - he is suggesting 5 tons to keep the electric heat off a bit more often ( split (2) 2.5 Ton units ) He said with the 2.5 ton units the heat will kick on at 17 degerees out side air. With a 2 ton unit we are at 27 degrees.

I have contacted a local well driller since all were estimating the wells neeeded for vertical
Well driller is at 14 grand ( added to the estimates above ) and will do 200 feet per ton . He will do a horizontal loop if someone else designs it... Honestly all geo dealers have stressed the lack of efficiency of a horizontal loop - I am surprised personally with that but it is what it is - all local installers push vertical.

Just curious, how did this turn out?

I started another thread for evaluating the well drillers quote.

It has been brought to my attention that the load calcs seem to be off (I hired a 3rd party for a baseline Manual J to compare others to ) and it's all about timing at this point

As much as I want to go GEO I am running out of time to determine my course of action.

I know this an old post, but did you go GEO yet? I am a driller from NJ, and we all the exterior work needed. Drill, header, trench into building, attach to flow center, and even purge if needed.. We do NO HVAC work at all. We leave that to the experts in there field.