I thought some might find operating cost comparisons handy. --

For context the system I'm designing now is a Cape Cod with about 1900SF above a walk out basement. -- In mid MI our gas is about 1.10CCF, geo electricity about 8.5cents/kwh and propane about $2.25/gal. --

Load is currently about 55mbh heating and 38,500 cooling. --

1)Geo with electric back up will provide all heating cooling and hot water for $900-950/yr --
2)Nat gas furnace and 18 seer air source heat pump as little as $1,500/yr --
3)Propane furnace with same 18 seer ASHP $2,000/yr --
4)High efficiency nat gas furnace $2,100/yr --
5)High efficiency propane furnace $3,600/yr --

numbers are rounded off all systems employ electric water heater (how many ways should I carve this up...?) --

foot note about low kwh cost, doc and curt recently mentioned that geo costs about $250/ton/yr but that's at 11 cents/kwh. With our electric rates we may go as high as just over $300/ton/yr, but we would install 1 less ton (saving thousands on install cost). So in NY state a 4 ton may run for $1,000/yr where my customers may run a 3 ton to heat the same load for $950/yr etc. At their electric rate however my 3 ton geo op cost jumps to over $400/ton making the 4 ton more attractive. --

Milder Climates can also get more contribution from ASHPs so in Louisville KY geo only saves you $400/yr over nat gas and ASHP and Columbia SC (where I just watched my son's graduation from basic training...way to go Josh!) geo is less than $300 cheaper than ASHP and nat gas furnace for all heating cooling and hot water. --

Point is ymmv and design is specific to geography and electric cost. It's not up to you to convince yourself to buy geo, it is up to your bidders to demonstrate the value of their technology.

Wow - we pay 12-14 cents per kWh, maybe $1.50 fo NG, and upwards of $4 for propane.I guess cheap energy represents a small compensation for the misery of enduring Michigan winters.

That's a nice summation supporting why we must be rigorous in our prediction of actual operating costs in order to justify whatever solution(s) we advocate.

Great rates Joe, are you sure you didn't include offsets from some gov't assistance program in your numbers! :)  

Something isn't fair.  We put up with the same MI weather referred to above (West MI - GR Area), but pay over 0.17/kw in summer and 0.11/kW in winter (these prices include all distribution, taxes, fee1, fee 2, etc. etc).

 

 

Posted By jokin on 17 Feb 2012 07:35 AM

Great rates Joe, are you sure you didn't include offsets from some gov't assistance program in your numbers! :)  

Something isn't fair.  We put up with the same MI weather referred to above (West MI - GR Area), but pay over 0.17/kw in summer and 0.11/kW in winter (these prices include all distribution, taxes, fee1, fee 2, etc. etc).

 

 

no, no govt assisstance. DTE has electric heating discount. Consumers is about .11kwh.

I made the op easier to read....was fighting my lap top yesterday to seperate paragraphs and finally gave up.

Sounds like some are buying directly from the producer of elect and some are buying from a co-op? Around here Duke Elect actually produces the elect but in rual areas are provided with elect thru co-ops(3rd parties). The 3rd parties buy from DE and resell at a much higher price.

Posted By robinnc on 18 Feb 2012 11:29 PM
Sounds like some are buying directly from the producer of elect and some are buying from a co-op? Around here Duke Elect actually produces the elect but in rual areas are provided with elect thru co-ops(3rd parties). The 3rd parties buy from DE and resell at a much higher price.

Would you give us a specific example of the "much higher" co-op pricing?

What tool did you use to determine those values?

If you are asking me how I arrived at the op costs, I used Geodesigner which is a CM product. There are many more out there.

Posted By geome on 19 Feb 2012 11:03 AM

Posted By robinnc on 18 Feb 2012 11:29 PM
Sounds like some are buying directly from the producer of elect and some are buying from a co-op? Around here Duke Elect actually produces the elect but in rual areas are provided with elect thru co-ops(3rd parties). The 3rd parties buy from DE and resell at a much higher price.

Would you give us a specific example of the "much higher" co-op pricing?

I pay .09/kwh but about 9 miles away, they pay in the mid teens.