Hello, I want to change our heating system, and I searched a lot for a green efficient system. We have a very (very) old oil boiler with old water baseboards, 3 zoning heating system, and no AC. We'd like to add a wood stove next year (in case of another power outage!). Now is time to know how we can do geothermal in the house! We have a 1927 colonial 2 stories single house: 2,000sf, 4 bd, 1,5 bath, with a project to finish the attic as a master bedroom and finish another bathroom, so at some point we'll have 2350sf, and 2,5 bathrooms. Obviouly everybody agree to install 2 units. We have also 34,000sf of land around the house. I searched online for geothermal specialists, found several ones from the state green website and from Angie's list website. So far I got only one quote after 4 visits of the house. The quote I got isn't even detailed (big rule of thumb I fear) and was from the only one who didn't take any real measures. If you know somebody ready to help me, have good references or any advice, thank you!

If I was in your general vicinity, I'd see if Looby's installer could service you. Looby would need to give you the contact information if you are interested.

Every good heating system design starts with a room-by-room "Manual-J" type heat loss calculation.  It doesn't take a geo guy to do it- find a fully-professional heating design company or an energy consultant to do it for you, and let them know that you're considering geo and pay them for both a heat load calc a list of recommendations on where the "low hanging fruit" is on cutting the peak and average heat loads down to size, with both the before-upgrades"& after-upgrades numbers on the heat loss.  Expect to pay $300-800, depending on the quality  & extent of the low-hanging-fruit analysis.  If they bring a blower door and infra-red camera (recommended), it may even break a grand, but probably not.  Whatever it is, it'll more than pay for itself in reduced system costs down the line.

That first ton of geo is the most expensive, but the difference in cost between a 2-3-ton vs. 4-5 ton geo is often better spent on tightening up the house to bring the load down to the 2-3 ton range.  The crossover point will vary depending on what it takes to get there, but rare is the house that age where a 15-25% drop in the heat load isn't cheaper than the up-sized geo to handle the higher load.  And the operating cost of insulation is much less than geo and the lifecycle much longer, so err to the higher-R & lower cfm-air-sealing side of anything you do to the house.

Once you have a well-considered heat load calc to work from, THEN it's time to call the geo experts. They may want to do their own heat loss calculations, which is fine, but if they're very far off from your consultant's numbers, make them explain in detail why they think their number is closer to reality.

If you've been heating exclusively with the oil burner, it's possible to put a very good upper-bound on the whole-house heat load (which won't change much with the addition, if at all), using fuel use against heating-degree-day weather data, or a "K-factor" which is often stamped on the oil billing (K-factor== heating degree-days per gallon of oil.)  With your zip code (for outside design temperature and weather data) and the K-factor, or the usage between two exact dates, we can use the boiler itself as the measuring instrument for the whole-house heat load in the as-is condition. (It's remarkable how many times well-intentioned heating contractors end up with heat load calcs higher than even the source-fuel BTUs that actually supported the load.  Most  heat load calculation tools overshoot by at least 15%, and user-biases (conscious or otherwise) usually adds to that.  But you can't fool a dumb boiler or meter on the oil truck by very much.

The other common fault/error in heat load calculations is to use unrealistically low or outdated design temperatures.  The updated 99th percentile design temperature for your area based on the prior 25 year binned-hourly weather data is probably ~13-15F, but make sure any heat loss calc is based on no lower than +10F outdoor temps.  Yes it get's colder than that a couple of times a season, even substantially colder once a decade or so, but a heating system designed to even a 97.5th percentile number will never leave you cold.   Most fossil-burner heating systems in the installed base can support temperatures not seen since the last ice-age (your oil boiler probably could), but designing to even the 90th percentile heat load to be supported with geo may not always be economic, especially if you have a woodstove as backup.

Given your ~15F design temp, you're likely to get similar (sometimes better) efficiency out of inverter-drive ductless (mini-split/multi-split) air source heat pumps as with geo at a fraction of the system cost, and with lower design risks.  The primary barriers to that approach would be highly doored-off floor plans and the aesthetics of the interior heads, if they can't be located in less-conspicuous places.  A 3-head 3-ton multi-split rarely exceeds $10K for an installed cost, and that doesn't usually buy you the first ton of geo.  Better split-system heat pumps have a COP of ~2.5 @ +15F, but rises quickly in to the 3s, and are in the 4s a 40+ temps. When all pumping and air handler power of geo are factored in most don't beat 3.5-4.  It's very likely that for the difference in cost between 2-3 ton geo and a 3-ton multi-split the design heat load of the house can be brought to well under 3 tons (maybe even under 2 tons.)  For reference, I have a similar sized & vintage house, with an even less-efficient shape (1.5-story bungalow), with known gaps in the insulation and mostly storms over 1923-vintage single-pane double-hungs, for windows. My (measured) heat load at +15F is well under 3 tons. If yours isn't already there, it probably could be with some air-sealing and spot-insulation.

Posted By geome on 13 Mar 2012 03:23 PM
Looby would need to give you the contact information ...

http://www.sintonair.com -- his OA does include Wayne.

- igshpa accredited

- Waterfurnace GeoPro dealer

- several good reviews on Angie's List (back in 2008)

- many good reviews on http://www.geothermalgenius.org/states/geomap/

Our geo system has been running flawlessly since Jan '09.
It's a retrofit to a mid-1950's home, previously with oil-fired
hot water baseboard (with no ducting). Now water-to-air
vertical closed loop, 3 ton WF NDV038 with desuperheater
and 10kW electric resistance backup (hardly ever used).

Disclosure: I have no financial or personal interest in the above
company -- just an extremely satisfied homeowner/customer.

...good luck,

Looby

I don't automatically accept that two floors demands two units. Much can be done with zoning if a chase or soffit can be found or retrofitted to accommodate ductwork.

Can't argue with anything Dana wrote - steps to reduce house load are nearly always better investments than upsizing systems. Aside from obvious reductions in upfront and operating costs there are difficult to quantify but definite comfort improvements that arise from reduced noise, drafts, and more even temperatures throughout the home.

Posted By Dana1 on 13 Mar 2012 03:42 PM
Given your ~15F design temp, you're likely to get similar (sometimes better) efficiency out of inverter-drive ductless (mini-split/multi-split) air source heat pumps as with geo at a fraction of the system cost, and with lower design risks.  The primary barriers to that approach would be highly doored-off floor plans and the aesthetics of the interior heads, if they can't be located in less-conspicuous places.  A 3-head 3-ton multi-split rarely exceeds $10K for an installed cost, and that doesn't usually buy you the first ton of geo.  Better split-system heat pumps have a COP of ~2.5 @ +15F, but rises quickly in to the 3s, and are in the 4s a 40+ temps. When all pumping and air handler power of geo are factored in most don't beat 3.5-4.  It's very likely that for the difference in cost between 2-3 ton geo and a 3-ton multi-split the design heat load of the house can be brought to well under 3 tons (maybe even under 2 tons.) 

I disagree with the use of air sourced heat pumps in heat dominated climate. I'll start another thread on this.

Five years ago I would have agreed, with docjenser, but empirical (and economic) facts have proven me wrong. Ductless inverter drive air source heat pumps have gotten SUBSTANTIALLY better at low-temp performance than even ca. 2000 versions, and will blow away mid-90s (or even current) ducted air source heat pump systems on whole-system power use by about 2:1 @ 30F outdoor temps.

In SE PA the true seasonal whole-system average COP of a better ductless mini-split will be pushing 3.5. Even if your $25K perfectly designed geo system might average a whole-system-COP in the low-4s (rare, but not impossible), the lifecycle cost delta will NEVER be made up on the miniscule delta in power use. Spending the $15-20K difference on cutting the heat load by 20-25% would reduce power use by far more than any efficiency difference between them. Same invested cost, lower power use. What's the goal here?

If your outside design temps are in double-digits and binned-hourly mean winter temps north of 25F there are many highly efficient yet (relatively) low cost ductless air source solutions up to about 3 tons. The sweet spot seems to be around 2 tons, give or take a half-ton, and that range should be do-able in this case. There are 4 ton split-system solutions out there too, but at somewhat lower heating efficiency (the big 'uns are usually used in commercial installations.)

SEE WWW.HYDRO-TEMP.COM AND THE OTHERS CAN INSTALL THAT TOO

3STAGE AND 100% HOT WATER INSTANT ON-DEMAND SAVES MORE ON COOLING AND HEATING AND HOTWATER

DIAGNOSTICS ARE VERY FAST AND 4ZONE BOARD BUILT IN

John-
Start a post about hydro temp if you want, but please do not continue to beat that drum while reviving every old post you can find. Again, when asked the pros here have advised caution at best about Hydrotemp as it doesn't have near the clout or track record as others.

If you wish to tell us how great they are, please select a central location (thread). You've blown current discussions off the front page.

BTW: again, people who ask questions are seldom checking responses a month later.

Johe:
(from JP Jon)

OK

and but are others confused with HydroDelata hydro-heat?

Clout? It is #1 with thw KY schools and has Built for WF, Carrier Cooling and noe Trane erv/ to 31,000 cfm.

anf the Second oldest GT manufacturer in the USA since 1977 ONLY GTHP...

Ok a thread then , but
i will still have a buyer GENERICALLY  ask in blogs:

how does the minimal Energy Star(tm) compliance of  with little (and usually found 90% not maintained) desuperheaters  compare to having 100% HW Instantly On-Demand and IN Cooling and Desuperheating in Heating to a programmed point, when fairly shopping for answers and especially when they post "we have had varying quotes..."
?
how does DANA1 get to comment on responses to his legitimate Q's of pumping kw etc, if no one mentions there really are under-2 psig wall-units and loops under (practically priced) 7 psig realtive to 20% antifreeze, very well designed...?

That is general to at least 3 manufacturers, unseen in the comparative efficiency blog. others questioning throughout.

Le'me know.
T's

Track record and clout...
I still would like to hear that more Engineers of 10 year selecting equipment and listening to undersized loop designs and not being told there are only 3.4tons in some 4.0's they think need 1500 cfm in cooling... screaming on blogs to ASHRAE and ACCA about usable SEERS of iverblown EERS ... !

Track record and Clout seems at time just not relevant to an ignorance of an existing manufacturer, we all know.

ASHRAE found out in spring of 2008 when ME PE Seifert, KY spilled the 'cold water' on commercially cutting "PROJECTED SCHOOL ENERGY TOLERANCES" by another 35% or more at the end of the conference, demonstrating a 12% superior design scheme by KWH over the next competitor, still not using ~30% over-sized water and 15% over-sized air coils, with data of new ICF using 30% more gt-Name Brand vs. H-T retrofitted stick-built school among dozens of finished projects, and the Federal Building now has.

Largest WF dealer in Fla, Col and N. Ohio and all over AR, GA, TN , LA PA and NY and a large distributor in the west
have out 'em in.

Not much has changed in the EFFICIENT GTHP arena, relative to - - just long time producers of the other 99% of HVAC.
Some now changed towards designs of who from the 1970's and even late 1980's manufacturers, like WF best-presented, made a dent with.

Heating system arguing
I could not enter that was locked...
never
( of my contention openly)

~never included one statement about what WF called in a programming board: "State of the Art" end of 2007.
Never saw one reference to all HW and HVAC and OEM 4-zoning and/or the circulator built-in-
let alone simple reference to HX added or ordered as a second Priority, the Aux HW for In-Floor, Radiant, Pool,etc, etc.
all which is common knowledge now ;
SPACE SAVING ( mechanical rooms no longer having Loop pumps and big starters and pumps and motors, etc...
Not a word about Enertec- Hybrids either, for DAN1 to peruse fairly.
The clout is there
the track record: of/to firsts in the industry in 3-stageing
dual compressors and - that compressors don't both fail when one goes .. as i have read.

i trust you want a completely educated buyer to not ever come back and say "Why were we less informed?"

~~~~~~~~~~~ how many third-party stickers needed with a dozen variations of each half ton ?]
If it does not perform, OEM must replace at their cost, rated or not, and rated's have been removed for poor performance of COP's...
HYBRIDS:
WITH COP's hitting OVER 6.0 !
I ask why not all presenting openly effectual single system hybrids, already prven great:
along with Hydro-Temp, that have had patents since 1981 ?

so a thread will be there
Also, but I saw the responses to CHRIS J without a copy of public info on website at www.Hydro-Temp.com

To the guy with the shop...
who mentioned the Stand-Alone, throwing air , not needing ducting possibly
the 3-Sided CORNER CONSOLE made contractor's magazine 2004
is going in schools and offices and conference rooms and restaurants at an 11 week back log in 2010 and new production is only 4 weeks behind with more crews...

I can mention all of installed 6 brands, but only as efficiently as I had knowledge of lifestyle and equipment-bests, in choices of the customers.

Joe
If a system fitting better exists, and only 2 or 3 make it, ...

I have no problem at all with signatures advertising biz openly and Dana1 sharing his compliment of Mitsubishi splits.

I do hear you about past articles, but I watch my eMails as past articles get responses so I can learn more "choices".

i will regard your concern; and but then in general questions pointing to Hybrid 1980 techology...
not omit for an on-looker asking how to find HVAC GT or some solar or discuss HtP application and efficiency

and when tracking-WEL-net viewers,
as others,
directives will be displayed similarly excitingly !

Just in an excited way
AS KNOWING MOST ANY DEALER CAN GET Hydro-Temp directly for now ---
Tell me then too:
How many manufacturers build the loop pump inside, giving inexpensive care later, and all the Variable drive needed which has a track record before WF was on the map? ( I really like WF as a best top of 5 ) say 3) 4-ton units -to 300 units) in an application, and all you see are the units wired and distributed.

T's

JP

JP,

I have trouble following you and getting your points. Please write in whole sentences, and please touch one subject at a time, and stay within the subject of the thread and start a new one.
Plus please stop hailing HYDRO-TEMP in each of your posts, you loose your credibility that way. If you want to convey messages, please do so that pros and the general audience interested in your thoughts can understand and follow it!

Posted By GTJON on 18 Apr 2012 01:31 PM
Track record and clout...

I'm interested in this (and many other threads), but I honestly can't follow your explanations or understand what you're talking about. I'm not a professional, but I can follow most every other poster in this forum.

Got a little historical for JOE, since noted he has not done any Priority HW with Radiant 4Synergy types, or Phase 4 Tetco, etc.
mine to better then:

DocJ

There is clout and history to things like you do but keep pointing to your neat schemes on the net. I plugged in many numbers around your, even back to "100" to see many !
-with pressure-less systems too. And like the W:W you install with Forced-Air to use 2 units to what's in one box with others.

I will post a thread

Here Curt, engineer,  and Dana accurately present options for  the home owner who has to know a bit more about size/ loads

POLITELY to 3400 sq ft buildings varying  from 20,000 to 150,000 btu's not knowing if you have 1000ft of single pain glass as a log cabin in Rootstowen Ohio does on 1700 sqft to "see the woods" and runs ceiling fans in reverse to clear the glass at the top..(129,000 plus Hot Water [HW] ! )
---for this relative smaller home this industry of getting a feel for a unit initially---

How much oil did he use on BOTH hot water and space heating?
Do you use elect or oil HW now?
Do you have 33% glass double pane sealed?
Is the basement very cold on 15 degree days?

b/c
the one type of older+ to  2300 (w/newer)sq ft divided by ~ 2
 if average glass and some older- insulation
for air comfort points to 1150 CFM (DANA's tight ~ 30 to 32,000 BTUh Compressor in some rated's "3.0" size, is 400/ton, then a quick focus for you/ div sqft by 2, knowing little of vaulted area, etc. 
USUALLY take the VOLUME of all above the basement, and half the basement volume and divide that by 17 for about 3.1/2 air changes per hour. new blowers do really well as engineer Curt points to and 200 CFM for ~400 sq ft dep on heat load study can be easy on 2 long 25 ft flex 6" rounds)

Minisplits spot and turbulate air so well you may only have 800-1000 CFM blowing about on 2.1/2tons, one outdoor unit.
A surface area study envelope and basement/slab would be for a loop if you have 3-4 tons in mind plu Priority HW- (instant).
Some have favorite instant HW for you to read about- that do baseboard also. GT limited to baseboards of only getting ti ~ 118 degrees, relatively need more distribution than your oil heating to over 160 deg if it does.


however a 40k compressor in some 4.0 systems -2 and to 4 stages controlled  are able to about match if over 800 gallons of oil already, and only needing  1.1/2 to 2 tons cooling
and that is to say you want to replace the oil/electric HW with something that almost heats as fast: INSTANTLY  as Priority HW heating

there are about 3 systems reliably Multi-staging and in cooling like an over-sized HW Generator called a DeSuperheater but the larger is Priority HW for On-Demand.  referenced website above.

If your old system is annually 55% efficient, over-sized etc I would ask does it cycle in the coldest winter much, and so on...too.
Partly because the smallest 3-stage at ~ 42.000 btuh's covers nicely 25,000 designs to 46,000 designs giving faster hot water than typical res gas HW
and installs about sold @ $2300 more to 3300 with some zoning, replacing INSTANT HW systems.

Generically you mentioned 3 zones, and that is efficient, but a drop-in for HW and Radiant assist and ducting for A/C and serious efficiency wouls almost be for leaving the 3 zones wide open and a heat exchanger with a priority system over-sized and ducted forced air as 2n and 3 staging heat (done several times easier with factory 4=HX: heat-exchanger Systems)

Depending on the "tightening" and what can be insulated, ducted, high returns. etc.  there are a few design with multiple units, but your 4th HX instead of direct to any baseboard that exists: CAN be what is called HYDROZONE for chilled and  HW to a fan-coil (glycol looped) just for retrofits not wanting duct but needing point cooling and heating. Again while 100%  HW heating in cooling stops loop pump to RECLAIM the heat from the home to your HW TANK.

I would save the 300-800 and put it in the ground loop, get new HW tanks (one works, 2 best) and have if you qualify, tax-credits on all as legitimately as possible. No outdoor units to be whatever. Balance a tiny GT with a Minisplit as Dana refers to. the CONSOLE gt unit have DeSuperheating for HW savings too, Much over 3.1/2 tons of air movement (1400) would be a "blast" unless you have 1000 basement to just keep air moving around in.

HW?
Oil est eff?
Gallons?

We have (probably many viewing) seen 20-24,000 GT, perhaps 30,000 btuh mini-splits and a little supplement leave under 100/month budgets saving 50% to 80% over all your oil usage ON THE DOLLAR !

Just a few that do all  4 things, one box. OEM 4zoning ++ Palm(TM) wireless programmable. 
Qualified tech can service any unit, without exclusive info, if they are refrigeration-electrical controls and plumbing oriented. The ducting is as important but learning flows and basic heat pump controls will work easily with OEM techs on line/phone these days. The days are gone over rejecting units with excuses of "it is not our technology"... unless the overhead is just too high to go to a different unit service call. Today  most and all top 12 brands are available with over-sized heat exchangers and EXPECTED control boards.

AquaCal St Pete Fla, for years had no service valves like a refrigerator to heat and cool swimming pools. They have 10-ton units heating pools for the cost of 64 ton hi eff heat pumps with all parts compared. In 1996 I saw 4 Teams building W:W and Air:W systems and both GeoThermal as  well with spa heating features to 106 deg . Now they are all over the mid-west.

John,
The first hybrid priority hot water systems I saw were Amana HTM furnaces. The second was Hydrodelta.
I reached the following conclusions:
Replacing the least expensive major appliance in the house by adding operating hours to most expensive one is poor advice.
Every combo-unit gives up something. In the case of the Amana units it was furnace life-expectancy and reliability in the case of Hydrodelta, it was reliability. In the case of other products, life expectancy in years will be shorter as operating hours increase.

Again if the product works for you great. I will continue to recommend folks not purchase something so obscure.
I will also continue to recommend against hybrids to my customers.

If you care to reply, what are the odds you could keep it to 1 or 2 paragraphs? That's about how deep I go into your contributions before my eyes glaze over.

Johe, from JP:

Did you put in the others?

I can not compare to Am and H-D since neither of those have the 100% heat recovery in cooling (loop-pumps-off), which is Hydro-Temps patent of 1981, as 'their' installers would know.

Hey thanks for you website still!

Hydro-Temp is available to any without the hybrid of a desuperheater alone, but the Full-Sized DeSuperheating in Heating and Cooling, then the larger piece of metal can make the HW alone.
Energy Star(TM) compliant andrated's hybrids with DeSuperheaters have minimally improved  getting more efficiency to a user.
Q) if a w:w and a ht-cl are in a system: is not the component cost MORE than an extra HX coil in a box?
And with DUAL compressors,  programmed well, is not there a 30 year longevity expected anyways?

Since systems I installed in 1980, before H-Delta or WF existed, are still running, I service and consult about as for 'show', then it seems obvious there is unfounded fears about the mentioned obscure.
What I mean is
the w:w TETCO's using Bristol G compressors of 1980 with 3-way valved cooling coils, domestic hot water operation as Priority as well as reverse-water flows for heating are the ones still running today, that's all.

Remeber all the hype over "tin can compressors just not a semi-hermaetic rebuildable"  ? I think a running 32 year history is ok.

enough for now: HYBRIDS are what you are installing as well. Another metal coil in line from the compressor is just a pipe.

DSH does not add significant operating hours when compared to on demand. It takes advantage of a product of refrigeration- when the unit is already running.

The broader point is your constant promo of product John. We get that you like it. Other manufacturers offer hybrids, so say Hybrid if that is your preference not the "only heard of once before you got here" brand.
Most of the readers here can't even name what I sell, because I give honest opinions about what they were offered. I do not suggest they look for something that is not already there.

If you would like to be a useful contributer vs the plague you have swiftly become, take our suggestions.

JOHE:

The information is before you and all.

Systems of SEVERAL and ENERTECH's TETCO, Hydron, etc...exist such that smaller pressure dops to get to 23 and 24 COMPRESSOR TONS per pump hp in a closed loop
and
oversized air coils for only 380 cfm per compressor ton ARE EFFICIENT, sufficiently so-
 (like a rated "size--ton" just running ~ 325-330 cfm per "size-ton", but PLEASE DO NOT DO THAT on the bare minimum-sized air coils that REQUIRE 440-500 cfm per ton to meet Energy Star(TM) 2012...yielding BELOW TEPID AIR at 68-deg conditions).

I put my first 5-ton (real compressor in box-ton) comfort air in 1980:
14 gpm required for high efficient heating air speeds; but  THOSE have changed a lot haven't they from needing over 2 gpm/real ton? .
However, 
 Enertech's TETCO used only 1.4 gpm per compressor ton since 1977 COP 4.1 heating, and later heated air and HW, at the very highest efficiencies  as TODAY since 1993, I trust you have researched already.

An 8-compressor ("size-9.0") -real-tons  in a 5500sq ft, 1/3 walkout basement, some radiant where a little was wanted and garage of 3. 1/2 car size, 3-bedrooms over garage, fam of 7 , 13000 kwh annually, and never back-up, etc, etc uses 13 GPM in HW production On Demand and under 12 gpm: 52-51.9 deg EW, 70-71 ent air, 380 cfm per ton heating; Colling first stage 350-360 cfm per ton to third staged preprogrammed at 400 cfm per compressor ton:  10 ton AIR COILS and 12 TON (3x4-tons) water coils.

Viewers can ask for WHAT IS THE COMPRESSOR IN THE BOX?
among other things,
What is the oversizing of the air and water coils, please?
Will it have a little desuperheater, or a larger full size heat exchanger for BOTH desuperheating AND HW Priority -On-Demand 100% INSTANT?

WHY?
if the compressors are DUAL, and the Variable Drives now around the corner for some- already here---- Why can we not expect the same as adding a more expensive System withW:W for a same 30-years longevity? What eveidence is there of any remarkable shorter compressor life? -cycle-life? over TWO compressors, and can be  300-400 dollars alittle larger contracted, with GREATER ROI in dollars in all things considered...?

Why is ACCA all over the industry about dank basements in southern states with many Air and GT HtP's?

Why not CANDIDLY discuss the search about Dr, Steve Kavanaugh , the 'source' article : HIGH SEER RATINGS and  efficiencies vs Cooling-Mode DEHUMIDIFICATION? (1995-1996).


gtjp

Posted By GEOjp on 30 Apr 2012 10:26 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah... [but not quite so coherent].

Yo, GEOjp, perchance have you met our GeoJamesJoyce, a.k.a. gtjp?

just curious,

Looby

Are you really asking for the sake of the viewers, or just agry?

I signed it gtjp

technical difficulty

Generically
just ask

or ignore,
I grew up in an aggressive family of manics,
andgot d's in engineering college in english...

so I will try to adhere to engineer by point of questions that BENEFIT the viewr.
or
I will post the questions such that Guarranteed Performance Answers will eventually be on any well meaning buyers' contract before the buy, reading my posted questions.
Not any different than you or Johe could push...

PEACE to U both !

The info IS important enough that 90% of over 70 sales are happy with 2 compressors, and now one can be a 2-speed getting 4th staging...
with variable  by others already
-
glad to see you might even care .

GTJP

JP

JON (hi Joe!)