Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 11 Sep 2012 09:39 PM |
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I have a 1998? Econar 5 ton heat pump set up for in floor radiant heat that has either the compressor or circuit board maybe both that need replacement so I am looking at putting in a new unit to take advantage of the rebates and credits. Iam looking for advice on the most reliable trouble free unit. I've talked to a couple contractors and have gotten very different answers as to which is the best unit. I've had bids on econar water furnace and geo comfort. Any way I look at it it's going to be exspensive and I want to make sure I made the best choice. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 11 Sep 2012 11:39 PM |
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((( Here we go again )))
The best brand is the one installed by the best contractor. Given several brand choices it is tempting to get on the net and try to figure out the best brand, and hence, by extension, identifying the best contractor by virtue of the internet most liking the brand he installs.
That's completely backward. You need to assess each contractor's knowledge, experience and integrity, and then let the contractor selcted by that process choose the brand. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 12 Sep 2012 05:21 AM |
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Sorry if this has been a reoccurring topic I waded through 15 pages of threads looking for information before I made my post. Maybe there should be a sticky on the topic if it comes up so often. I saw a couple of things there are many opinions on which is the best brand and there there seems to problems with everyone of them which is sad considering the amount of money these systems cost. It would seem in this day age somebody could make a product that is more dependable and trouble free than what is out there. |
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Bergy
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 12 Sep 2012 08:16 AM |
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We are a GeoComfort dealer and have been for 12 years. Their commitment to the product is second to none. Contractors help design the units, so service is easier than other brands. Having said that... the best product in the world will be a piece of junk if not installed properly. Make sure the contractor is up to the task. Check references, ask those people if they know someone else the contractor put a system in for and check with them. (You can find people not on a list of references that way.)
Bergy
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Sep 2012 09:38 AM |
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It would seem in this day age somebody could make a product that is more dependable and trouble free than what is out there. I can make hundreds or even thousands of units in a factory using standard quality control techniques that will function as promised, but I doubt you could get ten in a row installed perfectly. These units are much more susceptible to the human factor than they are to inherent design. What everyone is trying to tell you is that the best place to start is with a quality contractor. It's almost certain that he will be the representative for one of the top brand names, all of which should be acceptable. Even if you had access to a comprehensive database that showed Brand X required (for example) 12% more service calls than Brand Y, the variability of the service provider itself might have more meaning than that data. Checking references still works. If you actually check them, not just get wowed at long lists of laudatory quotations. |
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 12 Sep 2012 01:07 PM |
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Thanks for the replies. I am replacing a unit so I would think its a pretty straight forward. The ground loop was put in years ago I bought the house through a trust company so I have no info on the original contractor that designed the system. It seems what Ive read is there are problems with the units themselves right from the factory if I understand things they are shipped a sealed unit and the contractor just hooks them up. so it would look to me the quality problem with the units goes back to the manufacture. |
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geodude
New Member
Posts:58
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| 12 Sep 2012 02:53 PM |
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Posted By Griff557 on 12 Sep 2012 01:07 PM
Thanks for the replies. I am replacing a unit so I would think its a pretty straight forward.
the units themselves right from the factory if I understand things they are shipped a sealed unit and the contractor just hooks them up. so it would look to me the quality problem with the units goes back to the manufacture.
maybe yes, maybe no
First thought I have is that if you only need a new circuit board, than you should not be scraping the unit. This should be a cheap fix.
Second is that if your tech(s) couldn't tell you whether it was the compressor or circuit board or both. Than I would rule them out as candidates for the job.
Third thing is that although a new W/W unit is fairly durable. You may end up back here even sooner if there is say a lack of flow on either the load or the source side. Personally I would like to see between 13 and 17 gallons per minute on each side of a 5 ton heat pump like yours. Unfortunately this is often not the case. Another typical problem that leads to shortened life of the compressor is asking it, or letting it, depending on how you look at it, produce water that is too hot.
That being said, brand should not be the determining factor. I would chose someone who takes the time to adequately diagnose why your heat pump failed prematurely. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 12 Sep 2012 03:39 PM |
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Posted By Griff557 on 12 Sep 2012 01:07 PM
It seems what Ive read is there are problems with the units themselves right from the factory if I understand things they are shipped a sealed unit and the contractor just hooks them up. so it would look to me the quality problem with the units goes back to the manufacture.
I disagree. The refrigeration circuit of packaged units are charged at the factory. There is no (sealed) charge on split geothermal systems. Bad installers/designers can screw up a great many things even in a factory charged ("sealed") system. Problems can occur with too large or too small a geothermal unit or loop field, poor pumping design, loop not properly purged of air, faulty thermostat wiring, you name it. There are many opportunities for a bad installer/designer to screw up the "best", perfectly manufactured unit from the factory unit. The same hold true with other technologies (e.g.: try searching for "mini split problems.") As has been often mentioned here - choosing a good installer is the most important decision you can make. Have you tried contacting surrounding geothermal companies to see if they can find loop records on your house? Is there an HVAC sticker on your unit giving the name of the installer? Edited to add "(sealed)", as opposed to packaged systems. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 12 Sep 2012 09:57 PM |
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Posted By geome on 12 Sep 2012 03:39 PM
Posted By Griff557 on 12 Sep 2012 01:07 PM
It seems what Ive read is there are problems with the units themselves right from the factory if I understand things they are shipped a sealed unit and the contractor just hooks them up. so it would look to me the quality problem with the units goes back to the manufacture.
There is no charge on split geothermal systems.
Both of you are incorrect. Every split, geo or air source, is shipped with a documented factory charge of refrigerant. It is up to the installer to provide, route, purge, and braze the copper tubing between the compressor and air handler sections. The installer also weighs in additional refrigerant depending on the air handler used and the length of copper tubes (commonly called "lineset") between the two sections. The installer then further verifies operating parameters (pressures and temperatures, superheat and subcooling) to determine if further charge adjustments are warranted. If I'm "just hooking things up" I'm fishing, not working. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 12 Sep 2012 10:22 PM |
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Posted By Griff557 on 12 Sep 2012 05:21 AM
Sorry if this has been a reoccurring topic I waded through 15 pages of threads looking for information before I made my post. Maybe there should be a sticky on the topic if it comes up so often. I saw a couple of things there are many opinions on which is the best brand and there there seems to problems with everyone of them which is sad considering the amount of money these systems cost. It would seem in this day age somebody could make a product that is more dependable and trouble free than what is out there.
Instead of 15 pages the Shoppers check list should have sufficed to make the best dealer point. All other points are secondary save the "why scrap it over a circuit board" and why not get a second opinion if tech thinks you need a board and or compressor".
Good Luck,
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 13 Sep 2012 12:58 AM |
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My thinking behind replacing the unit is it is 15 years old from what I've been led to believe the average life span of these units is 20 years. If the circuit board is bad iam looking at about $600 Ive been told if its the compressor I have to replace the board as well so now iam looking at 2K the local utility coop has a $400/ton refund program that runs out the end of the year and the federal program runs out in 3 years. With bids I have so far I can replace the unit for about $5600 and be done with it rather than wait a few years and spend over 10K. It would seem to me the smart money is to replace it now |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 13 Sep 2012 10:44 AM |
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Sound enough. Dig into the dealers and don't take a manufacturers word for how good a dealer is.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 13 Sep 2012 02:03 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 12 Sep 2012 09:57 PM
... Every split, geo or air source, is shipped with a ... factory charge of refrigerant ...
There's an exception to this. R22 units can be obtained 'dry' these days. This is how some manufacturers have been able to legally continue running their R22 product line(s) in spite of the law that otherwise prohibits manufacture of R22 units in favor of R410. With the manufacturer not supplying R22 units with R22 in them, they are compliant with the law. For these R22 products, it's the installer now who supplies all of the R22 needed, which is lawfully permitted still. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 13 Sep 2012 03:40 PM |
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That's been a loophole big enough to drive a tanker-train of R22 through, one has kept the market for R22 compressors alive well beyond the drafters of the regs thought possible back in the day.
IIRC the manufacture of R22 refrigerant is going to end in 2020. I'm sure there'll be a bootleg reclaimed-goods market for a while after that, but if you hope to service that unit in 2025 you might be out of luck. If you're planning to move out before 2020 and don't really care, you'd still be able to get a refrigerant charge if the thing needed servicing for at least then next 7-8 years. Beyond that, yer on yer own... |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 13 Sep 2012 10:07 PM |
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Bill is correct
I left out the dry ship R22 option / loophole to keep things simple and since:
1) I'm unaware of any mainstream geo mfgs offerring this option
2) I would never recommend consigning a client to long term price / availability uncertainty of R22.
That said, I'm amazed by the number of mainstream HVAC contractors who took the "live at five" news blurbs opprotunity to charge $100+ per pound for R22, whose wholesale price doubled...from $6 to $12...highway robbery! |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 17 Sep 2012 05:56 PM |
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So more questions I have two bids so far they are about $700 apart but the deal is one is a single stage 6 ton ecoair the other is a geocomfort 2 stage with a 10kw auxiliary heater so we aren't comparing apples to apples here and the money isn't the issue I think both contractors are capable I just want the best trouble free unit I can get |
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geodude
New Member
Posts:58
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| 17 Sep 2012 07:16 PM |
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Did both contractors verify flow on the old unit?
Why six tons as opposed to five? It will have a higher flow requirement. |
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 17 Sep 2012 09:00 PM |
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Iam not sure what the deal is but the current unit is 60K BTU and is rated at 5 ton if I understand right the replacement unit would be 6 ton which I guess is the equivalent of the old unit if I understand things again does that make sense or not |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 17 Sep 2012 09:05 PM |
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Any tech able to see lightning, hear thunder, and fog a mirror ought to be able to determine if the compressor has failed independent of the "control board". Jogging (briefly operating) the compressor takes less than 5 minutes, the majority of that time consumed by removing and replacing cabinet panels and screws.
Compressors quit working if their start capacitor fails, which is fairly common and usually a quick cheap repair. Beware that there are companies and techs who will use a capacitor failure to sell a compressor swap - my biz partner, standing behind such a pair of thieves at a wholesaler just last week, overheard their scheming...
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Griff557
New Member
Posts:8
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| 17 Sep 2012 10:39 PM |
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I am starting to learn more than I really wanted and it's not givinge the warm fuzzies |
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