I had a Climatemaster TTV26 installed less than 4 years ago. I've been very disappointed ever since. I don't want to go into a lot of details on the past issues, I'm just looking for insight on my current problem. My unit recently quit working. I've paid for a service contract with my original installer ever since it was installed, and have had yearly maintenance as well as a few service calls. It's now January and I'm running on emergency heat. The installer came out (after three days - since I have heat and there are other people that don't) and told me that the evaporator coil is leaking and will need to be replaced. The good news is the part is covered under warranty, I'll only have to pay $400-500 (or more) to have it installed. They said they'll call me (hopefully) next week after they get the part to schedule the repair. On top of this, I'm paying a small fortune to heat my house with the electric emergency heater. I installed the geothermal unit (at least in part) to save a little money. I had hoped that over time I could recoup the $17,000.00 it cost me to install it. But, with ongoing repairs and the additional costs of emergency heat, it doesn't look like I'll every get ahead. I'd like to hear from people that have experience with this unit what I should expect in the future. Should I expect yearly minor repairs along with major issues every three or four years? I'm wondering if I should cut my losses now and go back to a gas furnace.

You might look at some of the small, vented wall mount nat gas furnaces. Not only would it help if your system isn't working, it would be cheaper to operate when it's really cold and the geo system doesn't keep up.

Thanks, jonr. I trusted the installer with what they told me was best. I had them remove an old, but functioning gas furnace when they installed the geothermal unit. They told me that the electric back-up heater was the best option, and that it would "probably never come on". I didn't know untill it was too late that the old gas furnace could have been used as a back-up heat source. When I asked the installer later, they admitted that it would have worked, but would have taken up more space in my (900 sq. ft.) basement. Apparently, I was too trusting when I signed the contract.

As auxiliary heat, not emergency backup heat, electric auxiliary may be cheaper than natural gas.  This is because the geothermal system can run at the same time as electric auxiliary heat.  In common (but possibly not all) configurations, the geothermal system turns off when the furnace runs.  I wouldn't beat up your installer for the electric auxiliary decision.

On the other hand, "next week" is vague, and a bit confusing, regarding parts delivery.  It has been suggested that the Climatemaster system of working with distributors may be superior to obtaining parts direct from the manufacturer.  Maybe someone here can advise as to whether distributors typical carry the parts you need.

If someone tries to sell you a service contract for a geo system, don't walk away.....RUN! But as always, you get what you pay for. We always have a markup on the equipment, and take the labor allowance from the manufacturer (which does not cover our costs), but eat any additional costs. That is what the equipment markup is for.
Electric supplement is better than a dual gas furnace, right now it is only an emergency function. Usually electrical supplement heat actually saves you money since the system can be "leaner but meaner", meaning it runs more efficient the rest of the year, and you can install smaller, more efficient systems.

electric auxiliary may be cheaper than natural gas.  This is because the geothermal system can run at the same time as electric auxiliary heat.

Just to be clear, this is also the case for the $500 + install wall mount nat gas furnaces. Set the thermostat for it lower and it will only handle the load that the geo can't.

Usually electrical supplement heat actually saves you money

And an independent nat gas furnace is likely to save you even more.

How much per month for a Gas account? $15-20 a month with no usage. Sure you can shut it off and turn it on every year but what a hassle. Aux elec heat on a well designed system would probably be less then fees for having a gas meter.
Chris

Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2013 01:30 PM

electric auxiliary may be cheaper than natural gas.  This is because the geothermal system can run at the same time as electric auxiliary heat.

Just to be clear, this is also the case for the $500 + install wall mount nat gas furnaces. Set the thermostat for it lower and it will only handle the load that the geo can't.

I was thinking of a split geothermal system combined with a gas furnace.

Yes - an independent wall mount gas furnace can run with or without the geothermal system.  We have gas logs for emergency heat in addition to electric backup.  Same concept.

Thanks for all of the comments. (I already have gas in the house for cooking and hot water.) I'm still curious, do geothermal units in general and specifically Climatemaster require costly repairs on a regular basis? (The agreement that I mentioned was not a service agreement, it just covers yearly cleanings, an air filter and a discount on service calls. We just took it for the yearly maintenance/cleaning.)

Usually Climatemasters are what I consider a premium brand, with a very good reliability record. We put them in for some years now, have very little issues.

Usually electrical supplement heat actually saves you money

And an independent nat gas furnace is likely to save you even more.

Not really the case. Upfront cost, maintenance costs, etc.....Lifetime costs of a NG furnace are certainly higher.

Lets pick some figures. Of course they are very dependent on the particulars and I'll agree that one can find cases where they go the other way.

Installed cost difference of a small, vented, $500, supplemental, wall mount, nat gas furnace vs supplemental electric in the geo system (assume house already has NG) - $1000
Opportunity to cost effectively further downsize the geo system - several thousand $ but ignored
Operations cost of supplemental elec heat - $300/yr OR
Operations cost of supplemental nat gas heat - $100/yr
Value of a completely independent system that still works even when the geo system completely fails (some wall heaters don't even need power) - ignored
Maintenance cost - what maintenance cost?
Payback - ~5 years

My experience has been that natural gas furnaces are much more reliable than any type of heat pump.  Maybe it is just me but that is the way I see it.  Unfortunately, gas furnaces do not have the ability to cool a home.

Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2013 05:19 PM
Lets pick some figures. Of course they are very dependent on the particulars and I'll agree that one can find cases where they go the other way.

Installed cost difference of a small, vented, $500, supplemental, wall mount, nat gas furnace vs supplemental electric in the geo system (assume house already has NG) - $1000
Opportunity to cost effectively further downsize the geo system - several thousand $ but ignored
Operations cost of supplemental elec heat - $300/yr OR
Operations cost of supplemental nat gas heat - $100/yr
Value of a completely independent system that still works even when the geo system completely fails (some wall heaters don't even need power) - ignored
Maintenance cost - what maintenance cost?
Payback - ~5 years

We usually shoot for 50-100 hours of supplement heat/year. Usually only the first bank of a 10 KW comes on, and only for a minute spike. Each hour of 5KW usually runs 70 cents/hours, so we see supplemental costs of between $35-70 per year at 14 cents/KWH. Our KWH price went down to 11 cents/hour. A 3 ton system usually runs $500 for heating, $150 for cooling and about $150 for DSH. So we are looking at $250/ton right now, $750 for 3 tons, or maybe $1000 for 4 tons. If you are paying 30-35% for supplement heat ($300/month) you are doing something significantly wrong.
There is nothing simpler, cheaper and more reliable than an electric heat element for supplement heat. But that assumes that the geosystems usually run without issues and are designed efficiently.
Example:
http://welserver.com/WEL0477/ http://welserver.com/WEL0477/

As you said, "that assumes that the geosystems usually run...." which is what started this thread, as seen in the title. Is there a manufacturer out there that warranties their system(s) for both parts AND labor? It seems to me that that would solve the issue.
What about Water Furnace for reliability?
still searching but having second thoughts about the investment, now.

> Is there a manufacturer out there that warranties their system(s) for both parts AND labor?
And supplies you with emergency heat when the fan fails :-).

Say in a case like this, http://welserver.com/WEL0267, with over $2000/year in space heating costs. Assuming nat gas is already installed, what happens if you reduce system size by two tons ($10K less?) and replace it with a $1K (or even $4K) nat gas furnace?

Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2013 05:19 PM
Lets pick some figures. Of course they are very dependent on the particulars and I'll agree that one can find cases where they go the other way.

Installed cost difference of a small, vented, $500, supplemental, wall mount, nat gas furnace vs supplemental electric in the geo system (assume house already has NG) - $1000
Opportunity to cost effectively further downsize the geo system - several thousand $ but ignored
Operations cost of supplemental elec heat - $300/yr OR
Operations cost of supplemental nat gas heat - $100/yr
Value of a completely independent system that still works even when the geo system completely fails (some wall heaters don't even need power) - ignored
Maintenance cost - what maintenance cost?
Payback - ~5 years

What are these numbers based on? You really figure a new installed direct vent wall furnace is only $500 more than a few hundred bucks worth of electric coils?
Why don't we "assume" home doesn't already have natural gas instead?
Further downsize geo? based on what? why not downsize it completely and go all gas?
How many designs have you seen that figure $300/yr for elec aux.? How many designs have you seen at all?
Gas appliances have no maintenance?
How 'bout payback in -10 years as long as we are pulling numbers out of a hat?
Suppositions based on assumption lathered in wild @$& speculation.

Posted By Alton on 03 Jan 2013 07:16 PM
My experience has been that natural gas furnaces are much more reliable than any type of heat pump.  Maybe it is just me but that is the way I see it.  Unfortunately, gas furnaces do not have the ability to cool a home.

With 25 years in HVAC that is decidedly untrue in my AO. Perhaps in southern climates where heating is less hours/yr and the geo racks up a lot of cooling hours.

Thanks for all of the posts. But, all I'm getting out of this is that there's no agreement on anything. From my perspective, jonr's comments about the gas heater make the most sense. Once I get this bill paid, I guess I'll be looking into spending a lot more money to prevent future surprises. I went from clean efficient natural gas to a $17,000.00 monster that's sucking my wallet dry. If I had the chance to do it again, I'd stay as far away as possible from geothermal. If you're considering the investment, do a lot of reading before making a decision.

Climatemast hasn't been any help. I left a message two days ago on their website just asking for a copy of my original warranty. They have not responded. I tried emailing the people that I had contacted four years ago, and my emails all came back as undeliverable. I personally have a bit of an issue with any company that doesn't even bother to respond to feedback left on their website. It makes me wonder if they know they're selling an inferior product?