What are these numbers based on? You really figure a new installed direct vent wall furnace is only $500 more than a few hundred bucks worth of electric coils?

docjenser's post is helpful. I stopped reading yours as soon as I saw that you couldn't read this right (it was $1000 not $500).

Posted By jonr on 04 Jan 2013 09:19 AM
> Is there a manufacturer out there that warranties their system(s) for both parts AND labor?
And supplies you with emergency heat when the fan fails :-).

Say in a case like this, http://welserver.com/WEL0267, with over $2000/year in space heating costs. Assuming nat gas is already installed, what happens if you reduce system size by two tons ($10K less?) and replace it with a $1K nat gas furnace?

You have to put things in perspective. WEL0267 is an old Tudor house with cast iron radiators, requiring high supply temperatures. It has a 108,000 BTU/h heatloss. So we put in a WF Synergy (6 tons) and use the 12 year old boiler to supplement, so the heatpump does the supplement with a relatively high balance point of 32F. It was $5000 for gas and $1000 for A/C before, now it runs at $500 for A/C, $2000 for geo operation, and about $500 for gas supplement. Salvaging existing equipment is always a consideration, but with forced air, I would always size it correctly and efficiently and then supplement it with electric strip heat.

JonR I have never had a house with $300 a year in auxillary heat, granted Portland Oregon is a mild climate, but I typically see $0-$25 a year. Imagine a house that has a 2 ton system and needs 3 tons of heat but only 2 tons of cooling, less than 1/3rd of the time would any auxillary heat be needed because I think we can all agree that at least in my area with design temp of 24 degrees it is maybe two weeks year we even get within 10 degrees of our design temp and we usually sit in the 40's. So if at 24 degrees we needed an extra 12,000 BTUs of heat(to be supplemented with gas) for a maximum of 2 weeks and for arguements sake lets just say its 24 hours a day. We are looking at 3.51KW needed per hour times 24 hours times 14 days so a total of 1179 KW(worst case scenario, its 24 degress for two weeks straight which also never happens) divide by $.10 per KW for electricity = $117 vs gas of 4,032,000BTUs total divide .8 for efficiency loss is 5,040,000 BTUs needed at about $1 a therm(100,000 BTUs) or a cost of $50.4 for gas. So if the homeowner saves a whooping $66.6 per year, tell me how the gas furnace would pay for itself when we don't install gas furnaces for less than $2,000. Plus a wall furnace is ugly and unsightly and now you have one more thing to break down or have issues.  That is also assuming you have a gas supplemental(wall heater etc.) not a gas furnace which would be a backup and not auxillary since as others mentioned, a gas furnace can not attach to a geo coil to provide auxillay heating.
If you look at most geothermal heat pumps, they are about 5-10% less efficient if you use them in a dual fuel application so there really is NO savings using any form of gas as a backup vs electric.

To the OP and your issue, this is not normal to have multiple repairs and issues. Of the 30 or so heat pumps we installed per year for the past few years, EVERY issue I have had so far has either been install error(not tighting a wire or screw enough) or other equipment issue(such as filter getting to plugged or panel not working well with generator) no issues have been with the Geo systems. Over all it is the least likely to break and requires the least maintenance. We do a once yearly checkup to ensure systems are operating properly and to change filters, clean coils if needed, reprogram thermostats, check blower, compressor etc and thats about it. You might have a water quality issue if a coil went bad but you said evaporator coil so thats not possible there. What other issues have you had? There is always a chance something can go wrong and it is possible that a coil just fails and you could have 20+ years of worry free use once its replaced. If there are other issues I would like to know what they are to see if they are related and if your installer did not connect the dots.

To answer your warranty(or somebodys warranty question) WaterFurnace provides a parts and labor warranty, their labor rates are not the best($60 an hour or so) but I also know it is very unlikey i will need to make a repair so whatever the manufacture does not cover, my company covers if you purchase the equipment from us. Trane also has an amazing parts and labor warranty and they pay us $138 per hour labor rate

I understand the points about supplemental heat. At $66/year (elec) it isn't worth doing anything different and at $500/year (nat gas, elec would be ~$1200) as in the WEL0267 case, sell more geo (even with the higher up-front cost).

A dual fuel (nat gas and geo) forced air system never makes sense (seems unlikely but I haven't seen enough numbers to agree or disagree).

To be fair to Climatemaster, they emailed me Friday afternoon.


Their rep said she'll send me my warranty (this is all I originally asked for), and said she'd like to look at all of my issues. I'll wait to hear back from them.


But, I tend to be a little cynical. I'm guessing the posts here along with the number of views this thread has had has something to do with their contacting me. Just guessing.

SkyHeating thanks for asking about the previous issues, but they'd be way too long to go into here. I just sent Climatemaster a two page email explaining the issues. This is on top of the page I sent them earlier in the week. Hopefully they'll have some positive news.

Just a follow-up for those who are interested. We haven't heard from the installer/contractor since Wed. morning. I sent Climetmaster the info they requested on Friday. I still haven't heard from them. This really isn't the customer service I'd expect from a leader in this industry. Potential Buyers beware.

If I were in your situation, I'd have the system thoroughly checked over by the best in the area and then shop around for a full service warranty (ie, let someone else take the risks).

Posted By tragosta on 04 Jan 2013 11:34 AM
Thanks for all of the posts. But, all I'm getting out of this is that there's no agreement on anything. If I had the chance to do it again, I'd stay as far away as possible from geothermal. If you're considering the investment, do a lot of reading before making a decision.

Tragosta, there actually is concensus amongst the pros. The guys who actually sell and install these systems (vs bandy about arbitrary numbers) agree that Climatemaster is quality equipment. We also agree that the biggest contributor to your happiness with the system is the guy you buy it from. So I agree with you that much research should be done before spending $17,000.00. If you have Nat Gas geo will take much longer to justify the expense but it will eventually (in most cases). Regarding dual fuel split system geo: The reason we (at AMI) install these systems is to either reduce the required electric infrastructure to home or reduce back-up generator requirements in our land of aging power grids.

I too have a three year old Tranquility 27 that seems to be plagued with problems. I will not go into all the details but I’ve had three major repairs…two bad TXV’s and a leaking evaporator coil. I also purchased the extended warranty that includes a labor allowance but have found that it does not even come close to covering the cost of repairs. You can’t blame the installer for these problems as they are all part of the factory installed equipment. I thought ClimateMaster was the industry leader when I made my purchase, but I’m thinking this decision was an expensive mistake.

As it turns out, Climatemaster is the current industry leader. You don't have to look far to find some problems with any brand. What we blame the installer for is not accepting the allowance given and instead charging you for fine print. I did a TXV for a client yesterday under warranty on a Bosch product and their (client) cost was $0. My cost was more than the allowance offered. So I paid some and the manufacturer paid some and the customer pays none.
So when we say dealer matters most the difference for you between "an expensive mistake" or just "$#!+ happens" is your dealer is not stepping up. You are paying some and Climatemaster is paying some........hmmmmm who isn't?

"As it turns out, Climatemaster is the current industry leader."
I should say based on sales.....

Well the installing contractor is no longer in business, so it's not a matter of them not stepping up. The issues I have with the warranty allowance is that it's not even close to what I've been quoted for the repair. This seems misleading on the part of the manufacture. As for your expectation that an installing contractor should to have to cover some of the cost of a repair under warranty, this business model only makes since if the installing contractor has already factored that into the price of the installation. So, in fact, the customer has already paid for this repair in the purchase price and then has to hope the installer is still in business if they need warranty work.

I'm sure glad the auto industry doesn’t work this way, nor most other manufacturing industries.

As long as the government is willing to give me taxpayers money (30% from the feds and 35% from the state) to install geothermal units I have no intention to pay over a 1/4 of the cost of a new unit to have another repair made to essentially a "plug and play" piece of equipment! Looks like I will be going into the HVAC business.

We do it like Joe, we cover our customers and take the labor allowance, and don't charge extra to our customers. Yes we make a profit, and I rather have it built in to be there for our customers, then to nickel and dime them later. But I also have "customers" who did get many bids, did not go with us, but went with the cheapest installer, who then did a crummy job, cut corners everywhere, and of course is now out of business. Now that customer comes back to me, wants me to fix everything and wants me to accept the labor allowance of the manufacturer. I am trying to help many people, but I cannot help them.

But I am with you, labor allowance is misleading for the consumer. That's why it is important to pick an installer (and their business practices) wisely.

Again, not trying to pick on you but do these words sound familiar:
"Labor incurred for installation of a new or repaired warranty part .......shall be covered......only to the extent set forth in the then existing labor allowance schedule provided by CM's Warranty Department.......
.....CM is not responsible for.....the cost of any fluids, refrigerant...."
These are taken directly from a CM warranty.

In the HVAC industry, warranties for geo equipment are superior to conventional equipment and I like to think the dealers are superior. All warranties have fine print. Buyer beware.
Make sure you get the right dealer.

The car analogy is not a fair one for many reasons, not the least of which their dealers are franchised with protected territories, so the manufacturer has some influence.