Geo Unit not Performing low Delta T's
Last Post 20 Jan 2013 10:05 AM by joe.ami. 6 Replies.
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bobalewUser is Offline
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13 Jan 2013 03:36 PM
Okay I went on the site and found the questions you would like answered, before posting. My concern is described at the end. Here they are: Where you live: Northern AZ 1) Heat loss/gain calculations for your home: Heating 62,049 Cooling 39,972 3) Brand, size (model), age and type of heat pump: 5 Ton, ClimateMaster TTV064 2 years old 4) Type of loop field (open/closed/vertical/horizontal) size and design parameters: Closed Loop, 5 Vertical Bore Holes 200 Feet Deep, 20 feet apart 5) Average cost/Kwh of electricity and consumption: 0.111/kWh 6) Entering and leaving air temperatures (EAT, LAT) measured immediately upstream and downstream of the heat pump: Measured at the supply and return duct connected to unit. Stage 1 Supply 95.8 Return 75.3 Stage 2 Supply 96.9 Return 75.8 7) Entering and leaving water temperatures (EWT, LWT) measured at the geo system: Stage 1 EWT 45.2 LWT 41.7 Stage 2 EWT 45.4 LWT 40.3 8) Percent of load to be covered by geo and balance point: Do not really understand this question. 9) Installer's assessment of your systems operation: Clueless, that is why I am posting 10) Projected operating costs, actual operating cost and previous heating and cooling costs: Projected, that my Propane would go to zero except for Hot Water, Stove, Fireplace (it has) Projected an increase in Electricity of 15% 2010 was a Split System 80% Propane Furnace and a 13 SEET A/C. 2011 and 2012 Data is with Geo unit installed. Installed in Dec. 2010. kWh Dollars 2010 12,849 $1,426.23 2011 19,604 $2,451.24 2012 20,314 $2,452.91 The issue is that I am using a lot more electricity than projected. And in fact I am using more each and every month including the summer months. This is comparing a Geo unit to a 13 SEER outdoor A/C. The Geo unit should easily out perform it. My personal bottom line is I am not obtaining the efficiencies that I hear and read about And thus my electrical bill is higher than it should be. And that is costing me real dollars. The installer has been playing around with it for months off and on (mostly off). So I have opted to see what I can learn about why it is not performing on my own via the Internet. I would certainly appreciate any ideas/help/solutions/even tell me I am crazy thus confirming what my wife already claims to know. Thank you Steve
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13 Jan 2013 10:01 PM
No answers in this post, but to clarify (if I understand it)... Balance point is the outdoor temp at which the geo cannot heat the house to satisfaction (outdoor temp balance point might be 15F) and needs some sort of supplemental heat (aux, gas, oil, something) to maintain comfort (comfort is subjective, but is about 70F inside).

Rereading your paragraph....your return air temp is almost 76... Which means you keep your house around 76, 77 degrees? Has that always been the case over the years? Have you been setting thermostats significantly higher each winter and or lower each summer? Do you have setbacks of any kind? Have winters and summers in the past three years been particularly extreme?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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14 Jan 2013 10:01 AM
Yes balance point is temp at which aux. must contribute to satisfy stat. If I use Flagstaff as reference city your balance point is around 9F.
First year seems similar to what I would expect with that load.
So what else (besides what appears to be an electric rate increase of 1-1.5 cents) may be increasing usage/bill.
If your set-point is truly 76 degrees I would expect around $2,000/yr.
At 70, closer to $1,500.
Tell me about the furnace is it one or two stage?

Joe Hardin
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pwagner3User is Offline
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14 Jan 2013 07:30 PM
If your really concerned about your power usage, you should install a smart meter or a TED5000 or a WEL system to measure your loads. It's amazing how much extra power the kids can use when your not looking. I installed a TED5000 and use Plotwatt to track usage and have identified many unexpected power uses.
engineerUser is Offline
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15 Jan 2013 10:50 PM
Water and air temps look good, if anything, may be overpumped. Stage 1 and 2 data suggests two stage system and that airflows are (properly) configured to rise with the extra capacity.

Heat load of 62k in northern Az suggests a large or loose house. Return air temps suggest high thermostat setpoints as Joe wrote.

May need submetering as pwagner suggests. Could it be that loop pump(s) are running 24/7?

Low cost investigation could include manually reading utility meter once or more often per day...note readings on days when no heating or cooling is used to parse house's base load.

Energy audits are a core function of my business, but AZ is a bit of a drive from FL.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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19 Jan 2013 03:38 PM
Loop temps seem fine for stages and the deltaT seems fine. Are you heating up a lot very fast I.e. do you set it at 65 at night and 75 during the day? If so you could be using all electric heat strips to heat up. Geo should be a setback of no more than 3 degrees in my opinion. Also a 5 ton geo system typically puts out about 54k BTUs of heat at full capacity so you could be using more backup electric heat than thought to heat up the home.
Visit my Youtube channel for product reviews and customer testimonials http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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20 Jan 2013 10:05 AM
Still trying to figure out why the nearly $1,000/yr jump in rates but it appears we lost OP. I don't know if a full geo year is reflected in 2010 or if a new addition of triplets arrived in 2011.....
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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