I recently purchased a home built in 2006. It was built to be very energy efficient with an E series Waterfurnace unit, concrete form walls from basement thru 2nd floor, good windows and great attic insulation. For this 2300 sq foot home we are paying about $200 a month (1600KWH) with with average temps outside of about 25F.
Does this sounds like this is within the norm, or do I need to have the original installer come take a look?

This E Series is a closed loop system, that I do not use for any water heating. Model E024TL101NBDSSA

One other question I'm curious about is the stages. Ive never had a geo system before so the stages are a mystery to me. Does anyone know if stage 2 is some sort of axillary heat?

Posted By jonny4d on 08 Feb 2013 11:48 PM
I recently purchased a home built in 2006. It was built to be very energy efficient with an E series Waterfurnace unit, concrete form walls from basement thru 2nd floor, good windows and great attic insulation. For this 2300 sq foot home we are paying about $200 a month (1600KWH) with with average temps outside of about 25F.
Does this sounds like this is within the norm, or do I need to have the original installer come take a look?

This E Series is a closed loop system, that I do not use for any water heating. Model E024TL101NBDSSA

One other question I'm curious about is the stages. Ive never had a geo system before so the stages are a mystery to me. Does anyone know if stage 2 is some sort of axillary heat?

I am not a fan of geothermal because the units are so problematic and all one reads on these forums is about how these systems cause problems & never run correctly. Most companies screw up on the install and then it's nothing but problems. 

As far costs, yes, that seems to be expensive for that type of home. What is the R-Values of the walls and attic? What do you keep the interior temps at?

Still, 2 ton heatpump is likely on the edge witha 2300 sqf when things get colder. Chances are that you are running a lot on aux heat. On the other hand, if your base load for your house is $80/month, and $120 goes into your geo system, that is reasonable in the mist of winter with average temp of 25F.



I am a big fan of geothermal, the units are very reliable and not problematic, rarely cause problems and usually run correctly. Problems arise from incorrect design and installation. Imagine you are putting a new window in but leave a 1 inch gap around it. Is it the fault of the window if it gets cold in the room?

Im not sure what the exact R-Values are but the house is made of Insulated concrete forms. So theres a good 6-8 inches of concrete wedged between 2 layers of some compact styrofoam looking material. I absolutely love it since there are no drafts or temperature differences anywhere. Again not sure on values for the attic, but there is at least 12-16 of spray in insulation... the type that hardens after application.

Would the thermostat tell me if it was engaging aux heat or is that what stage 2 means for this model?

Jonny, the typical scroll compressor used in geo units is valved to put out 70% of capacity in Stage 1 and 100% of capacity in Stage 2. After that it's "Aux" (resistance electrical heat) or sometimes, I guess, what is called Stage 3. You have a smaller unit which may have a single stage compressor. If that is the case, your Stage 2 might be "Aux". If paperwork on your unit is available, it might indicate if your particular model has a single stage or a 2 stage scroll compressor.

Where are you located?

Could you be more specific on the home layout? Is the footprint about 1200 sf on two levels? You referred to basement and second floor, does that mean there are three levels; basement main and a second floor?

I searched the Waterfurnace website to get more info on the E-Series heat pumps, but couldn't find what I was looking for.  All that I found was a general overview of the equipment in the following link:

http://www.wfiglobal.com/eseries.asp

From the above, I don't get the impression that this is a dual stage compressor.  Assuming it is a single stage compressor, then when you are in stage 2, that would likely mean you are operating on electrical resistance auxiliary heat.  If you had a 2 stage compressor, then stage 2 just means you are operating with the compressor at full capacity.  Stage 1 would be part capacity (generally ~2/3 full capacity).

In my area 1600 KWH/mo would cost ~$150/mo, which isn't bad, but isn't great either for heating a modern well insulated 2300 sq ft.

Is your basement heated and cooled?  If so, is it included in that 2300 sq ft you mentioned?  Does 2300 sq ft include the basement, main floor, and 2nd floor?

What about your thermostat - what is the manufacturer and model #?

How long does your heat pump run when it runs.  When it is really cold, does your heat pump run continuously or does it cycle off and on periodically?  If it cycles off and on, approximately how long does it run and how long is it off.

What temperature do you maintain your home?  Do you leave it set at one temperature or do you have it set to different temperature settings at different times of the day?  What are those temperature settings?

What about your water heater - do you have one water heater or two?  Do you know if the heat pump has a desuperheater to assist with heating hot water?  Do you have large demands for hot water such as long hot showers or baths or lots of clothes washing?

Posted By arkie6 on 09 Feb 2013 10:35 AM
Assuming it is a single stage compressor, then when you are in stage 2, that
would likely mean you are operating on electrical resistance auxiliary heat. 
If you had a 2 stage compressor, then stage 2 just means you are operating
with the compressor at full capacity.

Actually, that depends on how the thermostat is configured, and how it's
connected to the heat pump. To be sure of what's going on, you'd have
to check the thermostat setup and the thermostat-to-heatpump wiring.
For that, you really need the t-stat and heat pump installation manuals.

A thermostat that "thinks" it's controlling a dual-stage compressor doesn't
necessarily behave the same as a thermostat configured for a single-stage
compressor plus electrical resistance aux heat.

One's total for monthly utility cost can be highly variable on many factors beyond what kind of HVAC system you have and how efficient it may be.

Here's a discussion to illustrate this comment.

As a comparison point, for all of 2011 I averaged $250/mo (electricity + NG) for a 3400 sf single-story home with a lot of glass windows in a hot climate (Dallas), with 8 tons of geothermal HVAC capacity (located in hot attic), a 30 kgal swimming pool with 3 pumps, and typical early '90s construction techniques (nothing special about doors, windows or insulattion).  Of the $250/mo total, $62/mo was the average heating & cooling cost.

You can see charts of these numbers here:  http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043 .

I also have all CFL lighting, a dedicated home automation processor that's constantly turning things off as appropriate, shades on all windows, and ceiling fans in all rooms.  Winter time thermostat set point is 68°, summer time is 77°.  Cooking, hot water, and clothes drying are all done using natural gas.

Your one month (winter) cost is $200 for a 2300 sf home in a cold climate (I'm assuming this since you have a basement and avg outside temp is 25°F this past month), with geothermal HVAC (located in basement?), no pool, and excellent construction techniques (good windows, great attic insulation and ICF walls).

Before you can decide if $200 for a winter month is "within the norm," or if you "need to have the ... installer come take a look," you've got some things to look at.

First, you need to get a good reading on you 12 month rolling avg cost.  It's quite possible that $200 for a cold winter month might be quite good, and your monthly cost for other months will be substantially less.

Then, here's a list of seven things to look at that all affect monthly utility cost:

1. Your per kWh charge that you pay (I paid 9.9¢ for all of 2011, and less in 2012; you paid 12.5¢ for your one month illustrated here).  How aggressively are you managing your electric rate?

2. How efficient is your lighting?  All CFL/LED, a mix that includes incandescent, or all incandescent?

3. What is your living style?  Do you use programmable tstats, extensively use ceiling fans, wash dishes without 'heated dry' function, set your hot water heaters to normal or cool settings, only use detergents for cold water clothes washing, close drapes during day for windows that get a lot of sun, only run full loads for dish washer / clothes washer / clothes drying?

4. Do you turn stuff off?  Do you put stuff on power strips that make turning off easy, do you use switch and plug timers, do you use laptops instead of workstations, and do you keep seldom used items unplugged?

5. Do you spend time understanding your utility meter readings, and/or use various gadgets to measure and understand what individual items consume?  Are you implementing any actions from your learnings?

6a.  I assume your structure's heat gain/loss performance is excellent, that it's air tight (and no attic fans) and well insulated.  What about shading, though?

6b.  Having your HVAC system checked annually I think is a good expense.  A good geothermal professional can easily determine if anything's wrong.  Annual review also can help make warranty claims less of a challenge.

6c.  You might want to consider getting an energy audit to look for things that aren't obvious, particularly to simply have a benchmark.

7.  What's the overall quantity of Energy Star appliances?  I assume this one's pretty good for you.  If you have any pumps for anything (i.e. a pool) are they low power versions?  If your hot water is electric, look at options including heat pump electric hot water heaters.

If it was me, I'd probably focus on these 9 things for this first year in your particular home:

1. Keep track of utility expenses to get a good read on average monthly cost across an entire year, and then draw conclusion from it.

2. Agressively find the best deal for electricity purchase, if you have the option to do so.

3. Change out every incandescent bulb (if you have any) to CFL or LED.  This one's a 'no-brainer.'

4. Decide what the warmest (cooling) and coolest (heating) tstat settings you and your family are comfortable with, and then implement them (purchase programable tstats if you don't have them).

5. Develop the habits to turn stuff off.

6. Purchase a Kill A Watt gadget to learn what various plug-in items consume.

7. Plant trees that will provide a lot of shading to the house (avoid south exposures though to keep eventual solar PV a possibility).

8. Find a good geothermal HVAC professional and set up up annual inspection / maintenance.  The first time out can be used to ascertain if there are any problems.

9. Check appliances to ensure all are still in excellent working order.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By Lbear on 09 Feb 2013 02:24 AM

I am not a fan of geothermal because the units are so problematic and all one reads on these forums is about how these systems cause problems & never run correctly. Most companies screw up on the install and then it's nothing but problems. 

...

In my opinion, I'd reword this a little bit:

It's challenging at the moment to be a fan of geothermal:

1. because of recent years' problems with evaporator coil failures and resulting expensive repairs, particularly with manufacturer unwillingness to admit there's any problem with their coils and that instead the problem is the environment the coils are placed in.

2. because system performance is so highly dependent on system design and installation (it's not difficult to have 100% difference in system performance despite similarly efficient geo heat pumps).

3. because price paid is often not related to efficiency (the geo industry is not in good shape WRT avg design competence of HVAC professionals, w/o independent verification of performance it's difficult to separate poor performing professionals from those that do correct analysis and design, and the customer is not likely to be able to guage efficiency performance paid for as long as the system is keeping up with cooling/heating loads).

4. because mini-splits are displacing the smaller end geo residential market (considerably less expensive).

Further, I don't think this forum is a good gauge of how geo performs.  Most people that come here are the ones that have questions or problems.  The others, that are perfectly happy, probably don't come here.  What the actual split of unsatisfied to satisfied is probabably needs to be measured some other way.

Lastly, I don't know of a forum for geo users that is better than this one.  It's got many geo professionals who unselfishly donate their time to help - many of the professionals who know that they'll get everything they want in their business if they just help enough others. 

Best regards,

Bill

Thanks for all the feedback.
I have also tried to do some research on this unit. I have a manual which says the E series 024, 030, and 035 have a reciprocating compressor. There is a scroll compressor in the 040, 047, 058, and 066. There is a duel capacity in the 036, 048, 060, and 072. I have the 024 and thus a reciprocating compressor. I assume this means that stage 2 is actually the aux heater?

The thermostat is a waterfurnace TA32W01. This seems to be a very basic non programmable unit that shows stage 1, stage 1+2, and sometimes stage 1+2 flashes. I leave the thermostat set at 67 all the time. With it being 25F on average, it runs almost constantly. It seems to be about a 50-50 split between Stage 1 and Stage 1+2. The temp never ever budges from 67 although I hear it switching from stage 1 to 2 fairly often. It makes me wonder if one of the programmable units would be better for me so that I could set a 2 degree split between the stages. I would like some opinions on that.

The 2400 sq ft is the living space on the first and second floors of the home. There is also 1200 ft additional basement space. Although I don't have any open vents down there, it tends to stay about the same temp as the rest of the home.

We do not use this unit to heat water. We have a tankless water heater that runs off of natural gas.

I just purchased this home so I dont really know the average bills. The home we just moved from had a gas furnace, and our electric bills were around $60. So I estimate that we are using about $140 on heating each month. I just changed electric suppliers to get a better rate, but am still interested in the actual electric usage which is running about 1600KWH.

I could not find the manual for TA32W01 but I would assume the following:

stage 1 - This is where you should/want to be running most of the time given you single stage system.

stage1+2 - I'm going to assume you have resistance heating installed in your system. Running in this mode 50% of the time means you are spending alot of $$ to heat your house. ie your 5k? heating element is on 50% of the time.

stage 1+2 flashes - Seems like you might have two bank of resistance heating elements. ie $$$. In this mode you are probably running 5k? + 5k? of elements. (plus the geo system)

Given the system is running almost constantly and going into stage2 50% of the time you have problems.
1- Unit is too small for the house. (do you know what the heat load is?)
2 - System has a problem and needs to be serviced.


Basement -> "it tends to stay about the same temp as the rest of the home" - maybe because it's well insulated or maybe you have major duct leaks which is warming the basement? If the ducts are leaking, this could be the source of you problem.

This is what is frustrating. Its been very hard to do internet research and find documentation that clearly states this is a single stage system. Its also hard to find anything about the operation of the thermostat.

It appears from some other documents Ive found, that stage 2 on a single speed can also just be the unit shutting down hot water production to direct all heating power to the forced air. As I stated before, I dont use this unit to heat water because I have a tankless water heater, but I doubt the thermostat is smart enough to know I shut off the DHW on the unit.

Its been very hard to do internet research and find documentation that clearly states this is a single stage system

It seems like any of the WaterFurnace installers on here with access to an older E series manual could figure that out using your model number. You could also just e-mail WaterFurnace, although I understand that you'd probably have to wait until regular business hours for your answer.

I was able to confirm today that this is a single stage system. I also found out that stage 2 for this unit means that the DHW gets shut down to divert all heating power to "satisfying the thermostat". So since I dont use the DHW anyway, Im not sure what stage 2 accomplishes other than speeding up the fan.
I cant find the manual for this thermostat anywhere on the net. I would still like to find out if there is a way that I can find out when the aux heat is getting used.

I cant find the manual for this thermostat anywhere on the net.

You need to Google 'ta32w01' and then click on the result that says "Owner's Manual - Master"

You can find instructions for it on page 22-23 of this .pdf document.

It almost appears as if someone has intentionally removed all
Waterfurnace E-Series installation and specification manuals
from the internet -- and also TA32W01 manuals. Really weird.

Can't help with E-series manuals, but I believe the TA32W01
is just a rebranded Emerson/White-Rodgers model 1F83-277.

http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-US/products/thermostats/Pages/non_prog_universal_thermostats.aspx

Thanks Looby. That is definitely the same unit.

Do you have a separate circuit breaker for your electric auxiliary heat?

If you have a clamp-on ammeter, you could monitor current flowing through the circuit to see if the electric heaters are operating.

If you don't have an ammeter, then when it is really cold out and your thermostat is calling for auxiliary heat, then put a small dial type HVAC thermometer in one of your outlet duct grills near the heat pump and note what the air outlet temperature is. Then, open the circuit breaker for the auxiliary heat and check your HVAC thermometer. If the you see a measurable drop in air outlet temperature, then you likely were running on supplemental resistance heat prior to opening the circuit breaker.

Example of the HVAC thermometer I mentioned above: http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Classic-Instant-Read-Pocket-Thermometer/dp/B00004XSC4/ref=pd_sim_auto_1

You can find these locally at Wal-Mart or most automotive parts stores for <$10.

"I am not a fan of geothermal because the units are so problematic and all one reads on these forums is about how these systems cause problems & never run correctly. Most companies screw up on the install and then it's nothing but problems." Really? What an ignorant thing to say. Care to substantiate or just here to snipe?