Grab a beer, coffee, or whatever you like to drink because this is a long story. Thank you in advance to those of you that make it to the end and give me advice. I truly do appreciate it!

What I do know:
1) We live in the Greater Dayton Ohio area.
2) Working with a local builder, our house was started in Spring of 2010 and it was finished in January of 2011. It is a 2200 sq. ft. (and change) brick ranch with a full unfinished basement.
3) We have a 4 Ton/2 Stage Vertical Flow ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 (Model # TTV049AGC01ALKS). It was new at the time of installation.
4) We have a closed loop, horizontal field.
5) Prior to last Thursday, we had a Honeywell 8000 thermostat (I don’t have the exact Model #). As of last Thursday, we now have a ClimateMaster ATP32U04. It was “packed” in July of 2012, according to the empty thermostat box.
6) I had an Aqua Pure Humidifier installed sometime last year.
7) I have had a PMA agreement with the company that installed the furnace since we moved in to our new home. They have been out here twice a year up until December 2013. When I called for my winter PMA, I discovered that they were gobbled up by a larger contractor in the area.
8) Temperature info for the area from Jan 5th – Jan 25th: http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMGY/2014/1/5/CustomHistory.html?dayend=25&monthend=1&yearend=2014&req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA


What I don’t know:
1) Loop field design specs/size/design parameters. I have a call in to the builder to get this information.
2) Heat loss/gain calculations for my home. I have a call in to the builder to get this information.
3) EAT/LAT & EWT/LWT. I do know that 2 weeks ago, the LWT was 28.5 F. I will get all of this information the next time a technician comes out.
4) What type and percent of antifreeze that is in the loop line. I have a call in to the builder to get this information.


Electric Usage
Nov 25 – Dec 27 2013 2649 KWH $311
Oct 23 – Nov 25 2013 2184 KWH $259
Sep 24 – Oct 23 2013 1597 KWH $194
Aug 26 – Sep 24 2013 1852 KWH $229
Jul 26 – Aug 26 2013 2214 KWH $272
Jun 26 – Jul 26 2013 2225 KWH $274


When we first moved in to our home in January of 2011, I noticed that the return line on the loop was completely iced over. I contacted the builder, and he contacted the HVAC contractor, who told him this was normal for new installations and that we should keep an eye on it. The winters of 2012 and 2013 were mild in comparison, and we all know what 2014 is like. In fact, it is supposed to get up to 40 F today, and then drop back down to -11 F on Monday, and -15F on Tuesday. Here are the January temperature averages for those that are interested:

2011 - http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMGY/2011/1/10/MonthlyHistory.html
2012 - http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMGY/2012/1/10/MonthlyHistory.html
2013 - http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMGY/2013/1/10/MonthlyHistory.html
2014 - http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMGY/2014/1/10/MonthlyHistory.html


Fast forward to December 2013, and our winter PMA service call. I found out at the time I tried to schedule the service appointment that the company was consumed (I really don’t know the details) by a larger HVAC contractor in the area. I did some researching, and found out that our builder used two companies in the area for their installs. I went ahead and set up an appointment with the smaller business.

Prior to the technician coming out, I went downstairs to the basement to change the filter on the unit. At that time, I noticed that the return line was frosted up. It looked completely white, all the way down to the brass nipple where the water temp is checked and what not. I had noticed this a couple of times during the previous winter seasons, and honestly, I am completely ignorant of what it should and should not look like. What did have me concerned at the time when I was changing the filter was the amount of rust on the Flow Controller. Specifically on the return line nut and valve. 3 years of condensation has already taken a toll on this part of the unit, and I can only imagine what the next several years will do to it.

I decided to take off the service panels to look around. I discovered that the unit had water (presumably from condensation) laying at the bottom. More alarming to me, was the fact that this seemed to be a chronic issue and not a new one. The base of the unit shows evidence of scale/lime, and stains. Again, presumably from periods when the condensation was so bad that it started dripping off of the lines in the unit.

I put the service panels back on and waited for the service call (during the second week in January). The gentleman that came out was nice, helpful, and he seemed knowledgeable. The company he works for is listed as a GeoElite dealer on ClimateMaster’s web site. He spent some time out here and did the following:

1) Adjusted the flow of the water. I don’t know what he set it to (1, 2, or 3), and you will see why later.
2) Changed some of the settings on the control board. One of the dip switches he flipped shut off the hot water heater flow in to the unit (If I understood him correctly). He was not sure if it was installed correctly, so until he consulted with a plumber, he wanted it off. He thinks it was installed backwards.
3) He checked the EWT, LWT, EAT, LAT. At the time he stated that 28.5 F for a LWT was too cold.
4) He stuck a camera in to the unit to make sure a valve was not causing the water to lay in the bottom of the unit. He was confident that it was not the valve, but instead the condensation from the coaxial heat exchanger (the thing that looks like a giant black snail shell).
5) He indicated at the time that he is concerned that all of the heat has been sucked out of the water in my loop. This was his explanation for the frosted return line, and ultimately the extreme amount of condensation on the return line and the water laying in the bottom of the unit.
6) He also suggested that I get a ClimateMaster thermostat so he could have more fine tuning control over the pump/unit as a whole. We had a Honeywell 8000 at the time of the service call.


I decided to go ahead and get the new thermostat installed. During that 2 week time frame, we got smashed with the first Polar Vortex. I made frequent trips to the basement, and noticed that the return line would alternate from looking like it was iced over, to just having condensation bubbling up on it.

I also noticed that the unit would run nearly continuously. I was not sure whether it was in Stage 1, Stage 2, or Auxiliary Mode because I didn’t know too much about the unit at that time. I just knew that it ran most of the day without a break.

Last Thursday, the technician came out again and installed a new ClimateMaster ATP32U04 thermostat. I mentioned to him that the return line was frosting up again and defrosting, and that there still was water laying in the bottom of the unit. He switched the flow controller to 3 for the inbound and outbound loop lines. His explanation was that the water was moving too slowly through the unit and it was taking too much heat out of it. Increasing it to 3 would theoretically minimize the problem. He set the thermostat to Proportional Integral (No de-stage allowed), showed me how to use it, and went on to his next service call. It was then I started to read up about my unit, the thermostat, and geothermals in general.

After leaving on Thursday, the unit ran in Stage 1 mode for 6 hours without a break. The set point is 70 degrees, and it sat and hovered there for hours. We went to bed, and when I woke up at 2:15 AM on Saturday it was in Auxiliary mode and it shut off about 20 minutes later.

Friday was pretty much the same, it would run on stage 1 for hours, then stage 2 for hours (not allowing itself to de-stage because of the temperature algorithm setting, and finally auxiliary mode). I chatted with the technician on the phone on Friday evening (it is a busy time for all HVAC companies in this area right now) and explained to him that the frosting (yes, it was still frosting) and water were still a problem, and that the unit was running in stage 1 for hours, stage 2 for hours, and finally auxiliary heat. He told me he would call me back after talking to someone that knew more about the thermostat. He did so, and when he called me back he wanted me to put it in to emergency heat mode so that the loop field could rest. He said it would need more than a couple of days, and he said that we are going to have this problem until the Spring. I am paraphrasing, but his logic is that the loop field needs to rest and regain the heat that it needs. He indicated that we won’t have this problem again next Winter because he will be back out in the Spring to tune the system again. When we were on the phone on Friday evening, he told me to switch the temperature algorithm to Proportional Integral (Default, i.e. allow the unit to upstage and de-stage as the demand is met or not met). I did so, and left it in Emergency Heat mode as instructed.

Sunday I woke up, did some more reading and I decided to put it back in to normal heat mode. Since 7:38 AM until about Noon, it was in stage 1 trying to meet the demand. It dropped to 69 degrees, and stayed there for 4 hours. After 11:38 AM it was able to make it back up to 70 degrees, and then it eventually shut off (again, it is supposed to make it up to 40 F today). It never left stage 1 during this time. It seems odd to me that it will run in stage 1 for literally 4 hours straight when it is 1 degree off its set point. Does this happen because of efficiency concerns?

So my questions are:
1) Should my return line be frosting up to the point where it looks like it is covered in a layer of ice?
2) Should my unit run in stage 1 mode for hours, when it is a single degree off from the set point?
3) Should it also run for hours on end (again in stage 1) as it sits at the set point of 70 degrees?
4) Should I ever have any amount of water laying in the bottom of the unit? I am concerned that if this behavior continues, I will have a unit that has a rusted out bottom in a few years (best case scenario).
5) Should my flow controller exhibit obvious signs of rust after 3 years of use? Again, my concern is that this component will rust out and be compromised in a few years.
6) Does anyone have any more insight into the actual algorithm for Proportional Integral (Default)? I am looking for insight as to… The unit will run in stage 1 for XX minutes at a temp differential of X degrees before calling for stage 2. The unit will run in stage 2 for xx minutes at a temp differential of X degrees before calling for stage 3 (when Smart Heat Staging set to OFF).
7) Should I re-enable the dip switch that will re-enable the HWG? I believe it was dip switch number 12.
8) Should I put it back in to emergency heat mode and give the loop field time to rest? It is going to be insanely cold the next two days.


I am posting a link to numerous photos of the unit and the hot water heater/plumbing. I wanted to retain the high resolution of the photos, which is why I opted to serve them up on a Google site page.

Photos: https://sites.google.com/site/tranquility27geo/

Again, thank you for your time and advice!

Posted By roboguy on 26 Jan 2014 02:49 PM So my questions are: 1) Should my return line be frosting up to the point where it looks like it is covered in a layer of ice? 2) Should my unit run in stage 1 mode for hours, when it is a single degree off from the set point? 3) Should it also run for hours on end (again in stage 1) as it sits at the set point of 70 degrees? 4) Should I ever have any amount of water laying in the bottom of the unit? I am concerned that if this behavior continues, I will have a unit that has a rusted out bottom in a few years (best case scenario). 5) Should my flow controller exhibit obvious signs of rust after 3 years of use? Again, my concern is that this component will rust out and be compromised in a few years. 6) Does anyone have any more insight into the actual algorithm for Proportional Integral (Default)? I am looking for insight as to… The unit will run in stage 1 for XX minutes at a temp differential of X degrees before calling for stage 2. The unit will run in stage 2 for xx minutes at a temp differential of X degrees before calling for stage 3 (when Smart Heat Staging set to OFF). 7) Should I re-enable the dip switch that will re-enable the HWG? I believe it was dip switch number 12. 8) Should I put it back in to emergency heat mode and give the loop field time to rest? It is going to be insanely cold the next two days.

1) Condensation and ice formation is normal, especially on the colder return line, a sign that heat extraction actually works. But you or your installer should/could insulate that pipe better, it would stop the condensation/ice formation. 28.5 F LWT is pretty normal for this time of the year.
2) Yep, that is how geo heatpumps should work.
3) Yep, see #2 4) Not totally unusual. You or your installer can find the spot where probably some condensation occurs, and insulate it. 5) I am not sure what you mean by flow controller. Flow center with pumps? Again, exposed metal might condensate, if it bothers you you can wrap insulation tape around it. 6) That kind of setting is detrimental for efficiency. Your unit should be set to engage 3rd stage when 2nd stage cannot keep up, not automatically after a certain time frame. 7) Sure, why not making your hot water with the efficiency of the geo unit. 8) Why would you want to do this and pay for the expensive electricity? Geo loops don't need a rest if designed correctly. Your LWT of 28.5F is normal. Let the system run and do its job.

Could not access your photos. That would tell me whether or not I wanted your DSH to run.
Thermostats display whole numbers but measure fractional so you could have a stat indicate 70 when it's only 69.5 and have the unit run even though it appears satisfied. It could also read 69 but not activate second stage if it is really 69.1 and second stage is not supposed to come on until temp drops a whole degree or whatever the settings.

Your biggest problem is expectations. In an unusual weather event a geo should run all the time or it is grossly over sized. Loops are often designed to go to a winter low around 30F which would be cold enough for condensation to freeze on exposed pipe.28.5F is not horrible particularly when the weather is unusual. Insulate those pipes you don't want to drip.

What is worse is the technician you had out does not know this however young techs and uncommon weather sometimes make wrong assumptions.

DO NOT "REST" YOUR LOOPS. You will spend at least 2.5 times as much for heat and do little good except have a few good hours of EWT.

Hi Joe,

Please try this link... I put it in an HTML anchor tag so all you should have to do is click on it.

ClimateMaster Tranquility 27

Thank you for the responses thus far. I am starting to feel a bit better!

If/when you get access to the photos, let me know what you think about the dip switch settings, as well as the corrosion/stains near the control board.

Thank you!

Based on the photos, It appears your installers were not cutting edge to say the least. Those of us who are students of geo have abandoned one tank DSH use (so I'd leave that off) and concentric adaptors (although they didn't provide you with one anyway unless you wish to purchase/install a buffer tank.

I don't know all the dipswitch settings off the top of my head, but it sounds like your system is running as I would predict. Wrap any pipe you don't want wet and know if you can't insulate it it will sweat and perhaps rust. This is common. Again what disturbs me is that your technician didn't know it.

Joe, Again, thank you for the insight and the service (to me and the community). I am having another technician coming out this week from a different company. They are also listed as a GeoElite dealer on CM's web site. It is hard as a consumer to ascertain if a company and the technician are going to be a good fit. I try to confirm a good BBB rating, and overall good Google/Yelp reviews. Any advice on things I should look/ask for when he comes out this week? I can't thank you enough for taking the time to assist me. I see you are up in MI... too bad you don't do service calls down here ;-). I would have you out here in an instant. Stay warm, and go Blue.

"Stay warm, and go Blue." .....or Green LOL. Born a Toledo-en I have many "misinformed" Buckeye fan friends as well.
If I thought you were in real crisis I might visit, but I think your biggest problem is expectation.
Perhaps if you could speak to the tech before he comes out you could get a feel for whether he is also alarmist or a bit more savvy.

I was born and raised in Bowling Green... and I ended up on the right side of the tracks by being a Michigan fan :-). It is tough down here when I wear my U of M hat out and about. OSU fans can be so... uncivilized.

If you are ever down in the Dayton area, I would love for you to stop by and give things a look over. I will take you out to dinner, and we can find a pub/bar where we can wear some U of M paraphernalia to incite rage in the locals. It really is fun.

My wife called our neighbor. They had their home built 6 months after us by the same builder. They have a similar geo setup (Model of unit, closed loop horizontal field, same installer). Point of the call was to get a recommendation for a geo tech. The gentleman that is coming out this week was apparently at their house the first week in January. She seemed to like him and the experience.

I will follow-up on this post after our appointment.

Again, I can’t thank you enough for the help.

Neglected to say that I would pay for hotel, gas, meals, and obviously the service call :-)

Generous offer, let us first see if you need help.
I used to have a runnig bet with my brother-in-law for the Uof M/OSU game, after taking a drubbing for years it was nice to get a refund when some previous victories were forfeit LOL

System looks like its running normal, but as others said you need a buffer tank if you are going to use the DSH. I would dip switch that off and close just one of the circ line valves to prevent and circulation with the hot water tank. Total waste without a separate buffer tank.

Do you have a good layer of insulation in your attic? How did you insulate the basement wall and seal the band joist. Lowering the load will keep your wells a bit warmer throught the winter.

Only use the Aux heat if needed to meet temp requirements. Be careful with your settings on the stat so it only turns on when needed. Reducing night set back will reduce your Aux use and also the long 2nd stage draws on the wells. Are you using a night set-back? How much?

I hear you, Joe, it has been a tough past few years. It will turn around!

I am looking forward to following up on this post. You don't know how reassuring it is that if something does go drastically wrong down the road (which it shouldn't) that I have someone like you I can call upon to help.

I truly don't think there are any "Joes" in the area. With the 3 companies that I have dealt with, there is one technician that is their geo tech. The service mgr/receptionists have straight out told us that. The company that will be coming out later this week is the one that is recommended by the ClimateMaster distributor in the area. When the wife set up the appt today, the receptionist told my wife that they only have one guy that does geo calls.

There could be a "Joe" in Cincy, but I am not sure if they would travel up here.

Thank you for calming me down about my system.

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the info/advice. I am going to try to hunt down the HERS info on the house. I assume it would have the information you are asking for? The basement walls have some type of insulation that has been affixed to it with concrete nails. It is backed with a white plastic type material. Not sure what it is called, but it covers most of the basement walls on the perimeter, down to a certain point (i.e. not all the way to the floor). I can post more pics if that would help.

We are not on night set back at the moment, the tstat is running in proportional integral mode (default). As I understand it, this mode allows the unit to use a time and temp based software algorithm to upstage an destage itself to meet demand. Our heat setpoint is 70 degrees. In this mode, it will call for auxiliary heat only if it meets the parameters of their software logic. I have only seen it go in to auxiliary mode one time (at 2 AM). Of course I have put it into aux mode manually, but I won't be doing so again because now I know my loop field does not need to "rest".

EDIT: Band joists have a bunch of insulation stuffed into them. Just below that is the white plastic/insulation combo that I was referring to. It actually is quite pleasant, temperature wise, in the basement.

I found my HERS report.

HERS Index: 52
Building Shell Features
Ceiling Flat: R-44
Vaulted Ceiling: R-44
Above Grade Walls: R-14, R-13
Foundation Walls: R-5, R-13
Slab: R-0 Edge, R-0 Under

roboguy,
Dana1 is the expert insulation guy on this forum. Perhaps he can advise on your build. Looks like you have some decent insulation that my non expert evaluation can see. Bottom line, less loads will help, but is it worth doing any changes is the question. Air leaks on the band joist and attic penetrations are bad.

Did you dip switch off the DSH and close one of the water heater loop valves? Don't close two or you can overpressure something. I would plan on getting a buffer tank depending on your family size and avail space. We have a family of 4, and our 4 ton geo is preheating the buffer nicely on these cold spells. If you have only 2 people, it may not pay to do the buffer. You will get no benefit from your current set up and it may actually be hurting your efficiency.

My buddy has frost on his loop return line as well. Normal behavior especially in this bizare cold weather. Lots of heat is being sucked from the ground. My loops are a bit oversized and my incoming is currently in the low 40's and my return is around 6 degrees less. I have some good wells.

You can see if your loop flow is in the correct range, by verifying the delta T on the loop before and after the geo unit. Should be around 6 degrees +/-, but you can verify that in your manual. Have you checked this? Use a skinny stab thermometer on those special fittings (if your comfortable with this sort of thing). If you feel like it, you can check the calibration of the thermomter by butting it in a glass of ice water.

To much pumping cost electricity, too little hits geo efficiency.

Chris

No insulation under your basement slab in Dayton, Ohio? Is there any insulation under your main floors?

I'm not a expert, but in your first photo of your compressor, the shipping bolts are still installed, pretty sure they need to be removed. Are you getting a lot of noise from the unit? I have the same one and the installation manual said to loosen and/or remove them.

arkie6,

As far as I know, all that is under my basement slab is compressed earth, pvc in case i finish the basement, gravel, and a layer of plastic. I just double checked my construction pics and that about sums it up. Our main floor does not have any insulation under it.

Cris,

The last tech did not close any loop valves (to my knowledge), he just flipped the dip switch that would stop the circulation (if I understood him correctly). I will have the tech coming out later this week verify. I appreciate the feedback... I am going to gather all of the information from our next visit so you all can double check that everything is AOK.

I am going to ask for EWT, LWT, EAT, LAT. I assume I should also ask for the pressure readings as well? EWP, LWP? Anything else?

Hi pwagner3,

It is pretty darned quiet... with that being said, I will mention this to the tech as well. Thank you!

You could also have them check your freeze protection level.