Hi There I've been struggling to find a most efficient HVAC solution for radiant floor heating. I wanted to use natural gas boiler but due to carbon tax and CO2 restrictions, I'd like to consider a geothermal heat pump. Problem is construction is on bedrock and drilling 100' vertical pipes costs >$100K. I'm developing a 3 storey condominium with underground parking, 5,000 sqft per floor. So is it feasible to design under slab horizontal geothermal loop below the underground parking garage, about 10' below ground level, that will work efficiently and effectively to heat in Canadian northen climate (Niagara Falls, ON). I would consider it to aid cooling in the summer but the mechanical engineer is adamant that the condensation would be destructive. So focusing on heating, is it feasible, has it been done, what is a better option. an air heat pump is less efficient, less comfortable, too dry and may not heat sufficiently when it's -25 celcius outside! Thank you

my thoughts .
I agree with your engineer not enough floor area under building for normal ground loops
condensation ? where in building --in car parking area--
do you have enough land to make normal ground loops outside building -by far cheapest way if you got the space -
and even If you go bore holes no one can or will warranty exact heat you will get from them-well not in UK--so maybe you will need more bore holes than they say to start with.
running costs of air source over geo thermal
I am guessing the savings on air source heat pump system could far out weigh possible extra running costs and assuming you are going to use heat recovery hvac system
what you building structure from ICF? and concrete floors throughout.
If well wrapped insulation on outside all that concrete inside will make a good heat store

Using electric components of any kind is going to be more expensive then nature gas. When you have to convert natural resources to electricity, you will lose in the inefficiencies to do the conversion every time. Unless you are getting a great rate on electric for geo, like 1/4 the normal cost. It is not worth it.

I can heat my house on both natural gas and geo and have compared both. It is at least 20% cheaper to run natural gas. We used to get a off peak electric rate in winter of about a quarter of the cost but they took that way. Geo equipment is more expensive and less reliable. Not worth it....

@newbostonconst

Sounds like you bought the cheap of the cheap of geothermal. Heat Pumps can have a range in COP. Installation is also critical and quite honestly majority of Americans put in way too small of a loop. Particularly in these forums, which is why for the most part I don't participate, and just look for customers that either have my equipment installed or are in Canada.

@kamai

We should talk more about your project. Feel free to call me as well if you would like. There is potential that you can do a split system, to help reduce your costs. With 3 floors are you have approximately 15,000 Sq Ft. Without looking at heat loss or your building design in Canada your looking at about 30 tons to complete that job. If you did it all horizontal loops whether under the building or in green space around your property you need approximately 30,000 Sq Ft. of land space to complete all horizontal.

Also do not listen to suggestions of Air Source.. you live in Canada, not mid west USA or the UK where the weather is more fair.... The extreme temperatures we see these guys are not used to, and air source fails over to strraight electricity.

Geothermal units are getting very efficient. We are just about to launch a new heat pump that nothing in North America compares. Test market on loops in North America pumps and all calculated (North American COP calculation does not include pumps, which can greatly effect overall COP) we see average COP of 5... which includes making on demand hot water, heating pools, floors and COP of 9+ doing air conditioning. With this machine even in Ontario with the highest electricity rates in North America, we are cheaper than natural gas. We also do not blow up homes, create carbon gas emissions, and are environmentally friendly.

Contact me 5196240400

Stephen Marco
GeoSmart Energy Inc.

smarthomes is right
i forgot about your low your winter temps get --air source will not be the way in canada
other way in UK now --GSHP heat pumps cost 3 times as much as air source system --but we don,t get long low temp periods--so loss in COP for short period is made by rest of year and cheaper cost to install

Stephen, what is the payback of your 5+ cop system? Would love to see some real world numbers.....examples also.

Your units look like re-branded Water Furnace? Also your reviews on google are 2.5 out of 5.

Are you drilling to the earths core?

Also the fuel used to generate electricity is mostly natural gas, so with the delivery inefficiencies in the wires you are likely polluting more then burning it at your house.

Newboston,

The New unit that is running with COP pumps included at 5 are not built in North America. We are in final stages of North American certifications literally as I type it's being tested with ETL. Next is AHRI for energy star rating. Unfortunately we will not present the real world numbers until certification is finished in the next few weeks. But we have 36 Real world examples here in Canada that's been running from as long as 2 years ago. Lowest COP I've seen on the machines was 4.3 (again pumps and all included) making load water for old fashion rads at 130 degrees, making hot water on demand at 140 degrees, heating a pool and sending cooling to air handlers. In some instances running cooling and heating simultaneously. In Canada payback against oil, propane and electricity is about 5-8 years depending on options used within the machine. If you are cooling and heating pool at same time the numbers are insane. This unit can perform upto 7 tons, with 40 amp breaker and starting curve under 7 amps.

WFI builds the units you see on our website to our specifications, and are distributed to contractors across Canada. We do not go direct with customers, and only sell to contractors. The two negative reviews unfortunately are from homeowners who had issues with their contractors. Our dealer network across Canada have successfully installed over 10,000 geothermal heat pumps.

At minimum our contractors are drilling 180 ft per ton 1 1/4 pipe. 220 ft per ton for 3/4. Deeper holes the better, some drillers doing 540ft holes each well.

Also we are not the United States of America..... if you do a fact check on our electricity grid in Canada 60% of our power is from hydro dams... another 8% solar and wind. So there is 68% chance that your power is 100% clean no emissions, and you actually have a choice to buy just renewable energy if you would like to..