bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 29 Oct 2013 03:40 PM |
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I tried to ask this question at some other places but to my surprise, there was not much response. Don't think my situation is unique, so hopefully it will help others too.
With the influx of new, smart, wi-fi enabled or networked, large display, etc. thermostats, I would think that there should be a solution to efficiently control 3 zones of hydronic and forced air, together with dehu and circ. Also, I would love to be able to see the reports, track efficiency, usage, etc.
It's a 3 level house: basement (hydronic in slab), 1st and 2nd (hydronic under floor) that also has forced air on each of the floors. Trane furnace is a 2 stage model has variable speed DC fan and electronic air cleaner that can circulate at very low speed, all the time. Also, humidifier and dehu/circulator. Hydronic runs through Lochinvar Knight (1 primary, 3 zone pumps, Taco panel)
The goal would be to have 1 centralized thermostat operating everything with remote sensors or 2 thermostats total (1 for each system) I have not touched controls yet. Likely I will decide on Honeywell Tru Zone for forced air, with motorized supply dampers and bypass return damper. Possibly RedLink too, if necessary.
Important note - I don't plan on running both hydronic and forced air (other than dehu/circ) at the same time. I want to be able to use just 2 stages of forced air heat 3 months a year, 1 stage of forced air cool in the Summer and 1 stage of hydronic in the Winter.
I have looked into Honeywell Prestige IAQ and with proper add-ons, it might be a solution. Also, read some about Ecobee and it is really impressive. I know I would love it's reporting feature.
Whether it's 1 thermostat that does the whole thing, or 1 thermostat for each system, it needs to have zoning/communicating capabilities. Don't care for hardwired/wireless.
Hopefully someone here had experience with similar situation and can point me to the right direction. I know it can be done with 6 separate thermostats, but won't accept that it's the only good solution in 2013.
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 30 Oct 2013 09:03 AM |
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Try the Ecobee. 1 can control multiple systems, but not multiple zones. There are more sophisticated contols that can but 3 Ecobees would be much cheaper (as you're getting into commercial/industrial type systems). |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 31 Oct 2013 12:13 AM |
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So, with 3 Ecobees, each would be a separate zone. Then, forced air heat would be stages 1H and 2H and hydronic would be stage 3H - would Ecobee let me choose which stage is activated? Again, I need just hydronic in the winter. Or would hydronic be something like AUX heat? Any experience with Honeywell and Redlink? I am thinking 2 thermostats (1 per system) should be doable. And fall back (stacked set temps) wouldn't be a bad idea. Single do it all thermostat still sounds like a pipe dream. |
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HVAC-Engineer
 New Member
 Posts:64
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| 31 Oct 2013 04:21 PM |
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I'm not too familiar with the controls side of things, but it sounds like you need something along the lines of a commercial system controller. I'd look into either Trane controls or Mitsubishi controls. They both have wireless sensors of all types that have the ability to be controlled with a single thermostat. You're right, the technology is out there. You just gotta find all the right pieces. I will look more into this as I am very interested in controls myself. |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 31 Oct 2013 04:31 PM |
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Trane Comfortlink II can be a good lead. I think it's available to HVAC contractors only so my access to it might be limited. Pretty sure it won't do hydronic though. From what was mentioned here and from what I learend, Ecobee doesn't support zoning, so I would be looking at 3 Ecobee thermostats. Not sure how would I set up/select stages and how would I control dehu/circ. Honewell and Redlink is the only other choice I am aware of. Much more components involved though. |
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HVAC-Engineer
 New Member
 Posts:64
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| 31 Oct 2013 04:36 PM |
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Would you be able to describe in more detail exactly what you're wanting to accomplish? As I understand it, when you say stages you mean 1st stage is the forced air, 2nd stage is hydronic during higher heat load months? And you're also wanting to do zone control just on forced air side? |
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HVAC-Engineer
 New Member
 Posts:64
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| 31 Oct 2013 04:53 PM |
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If you can also give me model numbers on your furnace, boiler, and dehumidifier that would help me out too. |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 31 Oct 2013 05:23 PM |
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Furnace is Trane XV95. It's 2 stage heat. 1 stage cool. DC motor with low speed circulation. Trane CleanEffects electronic air cleaner. Humidifier is Trane model with very long # (let me know if you need that) and Trane humidistat that might not be used, depending on thermostat. Dehu/circ I plan to get would be Ultra-Aire XT105H or XT155H. I plan to run 3 zone dampers and 1 return bypass damper using Honeywell Tru Zone panel. Boiler is Lochinvar Knight WHN155, modulating condensing unit. 1 primary pump and 3 zone pumps. Controlled by 4 zone Taco relay panel (1 spare in case of failure), which has 2 wire thermostat leads. Boiler modulates depending on heat call from given zone and kicks in the zone pump. I would describe proposed staging as: - 1H - forced air heat 1st stage - 2H - forced air heat 2nd stage - 3H - hydronic heat - 1C - forced air cool 1st stage But that makes sense only if stages are selectable from the thermostat level. I don't plan to run forced air and hydronic together at any time, unless we get -40FC winter for couple weeks (you know what FC stands for, right?) Forced air cool summer time. Forced air heat in fall and spring and hydronic in the winter. Forced air heat in the winter could be used as emergency heat - if boiler system fails. Also, I would still need forced air's dehu and circulating features in the winter. Don't plan to program the thermostat for lower temps at night or when home is unoccupied, at least with the hydronic part of it. Here is what I would like to achieve, with order of importance. Would like to be access thermostat remotely using computer or smart phone and also track reporting. 1. Single thermostat for the whole house, 2 or 3 sensors (depending if they sense just temp or also humidity). This unit would have to be able to control zoning as well as staging. It would have to let the forced air heat kick in, in case hydronic fails. And also control dehu/circ. 2. 2 thermostats - 1 for forced air and 1 for hydronic heat. Likely 4-6 sensors (2-3 for each of them, to cover all zones per) I would set them up so temps are stacked in the winter and forced air heat would kick in when hydronic fails. Both thermostats would have to control zoning, but not staging. Not sure how dehu/circ would be done. 3. 3 thermostats - 1 each per zone. They would have to control staging but not zoning. No sensors required. Not sure how dehu/circ would be done. |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 01 Nov 2013 09:22 AM |
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Yes you would have to buy 3 ecobees at 250 ea vs 1 commercial controller for 3 times that (mimimum). The ecobee lets you select what 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th stage is. It monitors use that can be pulled up in an excell spreadsheet and can be controlled by your handheld. What you want is out there, but your starting price is about 2k for the master controller and then all the sensors. Last one I installed retailled around 5k (einstein II) but the 25 ton geo hydronic system required a lot of data points. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 01 Nov 2013 10:53 AM |
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Any idea if Ecobee takes full advantage of 2 stage furnace (when it's wired as 2 stages) - in that case hydronic would be wired through accessory relay. Which leaves 2 relays available per thermostat. Whether is 2 or 3 relays available for sensors, obvious questions would be: 1. With different sensors hooked up to different thermostats - can they communicate between themselves? If so I could use 6-9 different sensors, if I wanted. I would think that outside temp and outside humidity sensors would need to be wired to just 1 thermostat. 2. What sensors would you want to use? I am thinking outdoor temp, outdoor humidity, return temp, moisture sensor on mechanical room floor. And then there are plug ins. 3. Can Ecobee pull data from sensors hooked up to TruZone panel - outdoor temp and discharge temp sensor, if not what's their point in my setup? 4. Can Ecobee pull data from outdoor reset sensor hooked to mod/con boiler - or is it data just for boiler reset? 5. Would I need TruZone's wireless module? 6. I would wire forced air through Tru Zone and hydronic through Taco relay panel. Is that the good idea? Thanks for your help! BTW, I found that HoneyWell Prestige IAQ would be substantially more $$ and require more components (even more $$) Bayweb seems like a nice thermostat too, but it's just 2 stage heat, so not sure if it makes sense with my setup. |
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HVAC-Engineer
 New Member
 Posts:64
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| 01 Nov 2013 03:20 PM |
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Along the same lines of what Joe is saying, it kinda comes down to what you want to spend. Commercial products are the best performing but they also come at a commercial price. I'd get price quotes from contractors or suppliers to help in your decision. If you're not too worried about price, then what I would do is get a temp sensor for the return of each zone (you can the ones without the display for the non-master zone), a humidity sensor, temp sensor and flow meter for water (unless your Taco panel already monitors this). I don't think the outside air and humidity sensors would be very necessary. You could tie all of these, along with the display/master temp sensor into the controller. As far as staging is concerned, your furnace would be able to handle its 2 stages independently. Since the forced air and hydronic system won't necessarily be running simultaneously then I would n't consider that a "stage". The only hazy part for me would be programming the forced air system to kick on if the hydronic system fails. I'm not familiar with Ecobee or the others as far as web access, but I do know that Trane is capable of access over the web or smartphone. Since most of your equipment is Trane then it may be easier as far as compatibility goes. I would talk to a rep about adding in the dehumidification system and boiler into it for better advice. |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 02 Nov 2013 02:10 PM |
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Boiler or furnace can be first stg or aux. Aux can be 2stg. Stats do not communicate (to my knowledge). I dont use outdoor sensors as stats will monitor weather through wifi which isnt influenced by direct sunlight. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 05 Nov 2013 12:02 AM |
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I am coming to resolution that 3 Ecobee thermostats will work - 1 per zone. Not sure how Ecobee handles 2 stages and would HZ zoning panel do it better. There are still questions, like how would I set up the controls, having: - Trane XV95 2 stage variable speed furnace (feeding out 2 stage control vs time delayed 2nd stage set on the furnace - on that question if would like full 2 stage control) - Honeywell True Zone HZ432 zoning panel - probably with DATS (discharge temp sensor), which regulates the 2nd stage use through temp. - 3 Ecobee thermostats (forced heat wired as single stage vs 2 stages) - 2 to 3 sensors/accessories connected to each thermostat (circ/dehu, slab sensor, return temp sensor, etc.) |
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 05 Nov 2013 09:07 AM |
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We generally let Ecobee handle staging by Delta T vs timer. We also will often not have capacity for furnace or AC in 1 zone of a forced air system and will lock out 2nd stage if multiple zones arent open. Haven't set up ecobee to have a seperate primary heating v cooling system, but I believe you could. |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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bammer
 New Member
 Posts:7
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| 05 Nov 2013 10:07 AM |
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So Ecobee would control 1-2 staging and HZ432 would only act as high temp limiter through DATS? I was told that Ecobee can be set to pick stages and set to stack them in fallback order. Sounds like I won't even have to unplug the boiler during non-winter months. |
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