My wife and I have bought our 10 acres in Dale, TX.  We plan on starting to break ground next month.  We have a blog and we need help in some of our choices.  We are posting daily content and hoping that people can stop by and discuss any options that we might not have thought of.

This is completely a DIY project and we have a nice timeline and a good budget, but seek any helpful advice.

http://ecodale.blogspot.com/

TODAYS TOPIC IS INSULATION.

We were thinking of using 3 types of insulation. 

1.  We are planning to build a roof for our first step in thermal efficiency.  This will also act to help us catch rain water.
2.  We are planning on using ceramic thermally efficient paint to make sure that the containers look one nice solid color.
3.  We are planning on using expanding insulation inside to help increase efficiency.

What else do people suggest to help us in our build?

Wallace

Wallace;

utilizing containers for a structural shell is a great idea

relying on ceramic paint for thermal efficiency is not

I remember seeing ceramic paint on Bob Vila one time. I wondered then why it wasn't taking the market by storm.

Wallace, I think adding insulation to the outside will do you better than adding it to the inside.

White paint will reflect just as well

Ok, I am listening... What do you think will happen? The insulation outside will help "dampen" the heat transfer to the inside? What type of insulation do you suggest?

I was planning on painting them white, regardless. Of course that is the best and most reflecting color to stay cool with. I agree there.

Wallace;

you already are starting wiith a strong structural frame, so SIPs are not neccessary , but you could just use a nailbase panel to clad the container, then cover that with the finish. By cladding the exterior you will not rob the useable interior space and keep the metal thermal exposure

you may get some ideas from this link


http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j...-House.jpg


http://megeshelters.en.made-in-chin...se-05.html

Foam on the outside, whether as rigid foam board, or I guess there could be ways of applying spray foam outside too.

We are planning on using a passive roof for the wind to blow through. This ought to make a good portion of the outside insulation not necessary, right? This way the inside will be insulated to keep the outside look and shape intact for the purpose of an alternative green building design. My thoughts about inside insulation were that this would help keep the COOL air from A/C or the HEAT inside the container. Do you think that will work?

I would put all insulation on the outside,  containers are less than 8ft. wide and less than 8ft. tall, unless you get a "high cube" . Saving interior inches is important

I agree with Chris.  Just be sure to protect the foam from UV and weather.

Your suggested roof in the attached pic will go a long way toward keeping temps down. Every time I pump gas at a large filling station that has such a roof I notice how much cooler it is under there. But I don't think it can totally replace insulation in the roof. The ambient temperature will heat up (or chill in the winter time) the heavy steel of your shipping container.

Posted By Jelly on 09 Aug 2010 08:41 PM
I remember seeing ceramic paint on Bob Vila one time. I wondered then why it wasn't taking the market by storm.

Wallace, I think adding insulation to the outside will do you better than adding it to the inside.

Most of them are complete wishful thinking at best (snake oil, sez some), but some (including some of Super Therm's products, but none of Nansulate's stuff SFAIK) meet the specs for a California Title 24 2008 compliant "cool roof" solar heat rejection coating by having a favorable IR emissivity to solar-spectrum reflectivity ratio.  Some ceramic paints have higher-than standard acrylic or latex durabilty too.

Whether a ceramic coating version of a solar-rejection paint is worth paying more for kinda depends on price & anticipated lifecycle.  But whatever they are, they AREN'T a substitute for ASTM C 518 tested & rated insulation.  On vertical surfaces their value is negligible, but on the flat top of a cargo can cool-roof materials can make a measureable dent in the sensible cooling load.  (I'd hold out for CA Title 24 compliant goods though- some whites are "whiter" than others in the spectrum that counts, and some are blacker than others in the sub-400K blackbody-radiation infra-red.  White paints are not all created equal...)

Posted By jeepingetowah on 10 Aug 2010 12:12 PM
We are planning on using a passive roof for the wind to blow through. This ought to make a good portion of the outside insulation not necessary, right? This way the inside will be insulated to keep the outside look and shape intact for the purpose of an alternative green building design. My thoughts about inside insulation were that this would help keep the COOL air from A/C or the HEAT inside the container. Do you think that will work?

The shading roof would do well to have a solar-rejecting "cool roof" top finish, and a low-E bottom side finish (such as radiant-barrier paint) otherwise a real fraction of the solar heat would still be radiating down to the shipping container.  But it's not a bad approach. Exterior shades work!

The effect of the insulation will be the same whether it's inside or outside the container.  Insulating on the inside eats up more floor area.  The cost of protective siding/roofing over the insulation will be a cost adder, but it needn't be outrageous.

@Dana1

So the term for the passive roof is "COOL ROOF"?  I like that... and I will go research what others have done with those types of roofs.  We have made this our first line of defense, but we have not researched the structural components of it at this time.  I will get to it.

As for the paint, I have tried to adapt logic to the claims these types of paint have made.  But the proof is in the putting.  We plan on using a form type method of breaking down each project.  So during those breakdowns we will see how the cost of those "insulating" paints offsets the projects.  I plan on painting anyways though.  We will most likely have to paint inside and out 2 containers.  So that is not that bad in the end to have a nice quality paint.  Even if it gives a little bit of insulation.  (not expecting much at this point)

I will also look up "Low-E"  I have never heard of that before.

Lastly a lot of folks are commenting that the loss of the inside space is to be considered.  I totally understand that idea.  However, at this time we are planning (only planning stages) to use 2 containers parallel spaced 24 feet apart.  This will allow for a square of 40 feet by 40 feet.  About 1600 sq ft.  In the end (3 - 5 year timeline for buildout) we hope to have the 2 interior walls removed and conjoin the spaces with a roof and a floor.  So to me, putting the insulation on the inside will help with asthetics and sound deadening effects.

There is really a lot in the air with that said, but the help here is magnificent.  I will be back for more as I have more questions.  Any further responses are WELCOMED. 

Paint has no insulation value

Posted By jeepingetowah on 11 Aug 2010 04:08 PM
@Dana1

So the term for the passive roof is "COOL ROOF"?  I like that... and I will go research what others have done with those types of roofs.  We have made this our first line of defense, but we have not researched the structural components of it at this time.  I will get to it.

As for the paint, I have tried to adapt logic to the claims these types of paint have made.  But the proof is in the putting.  We plan on using a form type method of breaking down each project.  So during those breakdowns we will see how the cost of those "insulating" paints offsets the projects.  I plan on painting anyways though.  We will most likely have to paint inside and out 2 containers.  So that is not that bad in the end to have a nice quality paint.  Even if it gives a little bit of insulation.  (not expecting much at this point)

I will also look up "Low-E"  I have never heard of that before.

Lastly a lot of folks are commenting that the loss of the inside space is to be considered.  I totally understand that idea.  However, at this time we are planning (only planning stages) to use 2 containers parallel spaced 24 feet apart.  This will allow for a square of 40 feet by 40 feet.  About 1600 sq ft.  In the end (3 - 5 year timeline for buildout) we hope to have the 2 interior walls removed and conjoin the spaces with a roof and a floor.  So to me, putting the insulation on the inside will help with asthetics and sound deadening effects.

There is really a lot in the air with that said, but the help here is magnificent.  I will be back for more as I have more questions.  Any further responses are WELCOMED. 

Chris is correct- paint has no insulation value. NONE!

But there is ample evidence that paint can reduce or increase solar gain of building surfaces, and that on low angle roofs (pitches lower than 2:12) where natural convection cooling is low,  high solar-reflectivity combined with high infra-red emissivity makes a substantial difference in roof temperature, and the net cooling load of buildings.

"Cool roof" is an term applied to high solar reflectivity/high IR emissivity roofing MATERIALS, not a free-stancing shading-roof design.

"Low-E" means low infra-red emissivity.  This is half of the radiant-barrier effect of aluminum surfaces.  Unlike "cool roof" materials, aluminum has very low emissivity even in the infra-red spectrum.  Placing an aluminum foil between a hot surface and a cooler one, the aluminum will reflect over 95% of the radiated heat right back at the source, but the other few percent it absorbs- the aluminum gets hot(!).  But even when hot the aluminum doesn't radiate much heat toward the cooler surface- it can't, and cools primarily via conducting that heat to the adjacent air.  Using transparent partially reflective low-E coatings on glass is a standard method of improving the heat rejection/retention of windows.  It has no R-value by itself, but it still improves the thermal performance of the window.

You might want to check out the BuildItSolar site.  Especailly the creative ideas in the "I did it" section.  For whatever reason, your project made me think of Papercrete a little cement, lots of paper and dirt.  My thought was to make blocks and use it either inside or outside the walls to give you insulation and thermal mass. 

Try http://www.containerhome.info/. They have a lot of unbiased info. on container homes.