I have thoroughly enjoyed the numerous topics on this website. We are Getting ready to build a 2200 sqft two story with unfinished basement (icf all the way up) in the Shenandoah valley of Va. We will be heating and cooling with heat pump but wondering about spending the extra $$ on pex in the basement slab for possible future radiant. Our budget is starting to get a little tight but is radiant something we may not even need with icf? My quote for tubing was about $2500. We are also considering slag in the mix since we will be using a lot of concrete in the house. Anybody see health problems with slag when used about 50percent of cement mix?

You might look at PE-RT tubing in just the areas that might get finished. Plus in any tiled floors on the first floor.

Anybody see health problems with slag

No. And once it is mixed and set, it's just that much more unreactive. The risk for the residents is, for all practical purposes, zero.

is radiant something we may not even need with icf

Radiant and ICF go hand in hand. If you have a radiant system to begin with, it's a mistake to pour a slab without tubing it. It's so cheap and efficient, it just doesn't make sense to leave it out.

My quote for tubing was about $2500

For just the basement? How many square feet down there?

Thx everyone. Basements about 1100 sqr ft. I agree once you pass up tubing in a slab there is no going back. We dont have radiant set up yet for rest of house but are leaving it as an option down the road. Any problems acid washing and staining the floor if there is slag in the mix? I have heard you have to be careful with ice melt on driveways with some additives.

Fly ash will stain different than traditional concrete. I have had the top part of the slab topped off with a particular mix for the floor staining at the end of the poor.

You need one foot of 1/2 inch O2 barrier pex per square foot of slab to install. It is less than a day’s labor for one person to lay and tie the pex. The material cost is only $350 for the job. 8 hours labor at $50 per hour is $400. This should not cost more than $800 to have a contractor do it. If it is more they are ripping you. It is a due flunky job. It is easy to do, not difficult. It is light labor and a bunch of tying.

At $2500 he is charging you $250 per hour for the labor. That sounds a little steep to me!

We did an 8200 square foot home with 2 laborers in one day on the last house we built. Materials were $2500 and the labor cost was $800 for a total of $3300. That was only 41 cents per foot. At that rate your 1100 square feet should only cost about $500 in actual labor and materials. I could see a couple extra hundred because it is a small job. I would find a new contractor that is not ripping you off if $2500 was his actual quote for the infloor pex.

You do need to fill the lines with water and seal the ends before pouring so the tubing cannot collapse form stepping on the tubing during the poor. You also need to make the lay out of the tubes so all the lengths are less than 250 feet and all the same length. 1100/5 so each length should be 220 plus about 30 to get to the header or 250 feet in your case. Each loop should circle the outside of its area and then snake back and fourth until it gets back to the manifold. Manifold should be in a central location.

That is about it.

Brian

You do need to fill the lines with water and seal the ends before pouring so the tubing cannot collapse form stepping on the tubing during the poor.

What kind of PEX is that? I don't have much experience with different kinds of PEX, but I recently used hePEX plus by Uponor and can't imagine it collapsing underfoot. I had to charge the lines with 100 psi of air for inspection and saw no reason to release the pressure before the pour.

I will also note that the use of a balancing manifold does away with the necessity that all the loops be exactly the same, but if you want to do a "DIY" job, you need to have some rudimentary knowledge of loop layout.

On cost, I agree that $2,500 is unnecessarily rich for 1,100 sq ft of basement, but I also can't imagine tubing an 8200 square foot home for only $3,300.

Tubing will run at least $0.30 - $0.60 a foot depending on quality. That's $350 - $700, allowing for waste and unit purchase.

$50/hr on a large job is one thing, but these days, I don't think I'd want a guy with a license on my small job who only charged that. I like a combination of brains and brawn - like contractor and assistant. Call it $70/$30 or $60/$40, but a low of $100/hr for the team is probably fair there. At 6 hours, that's $600, minimum. If you went with posted rates, you'd probably pay $140/hr for the two which is $840 or more.

Now your "fair" range is $950 - $1540, not including additional hardware like manifold, etc.

I can't imagine doing an 8200 sf home in one day for $800 in labor, even if it was an aircraft hangar. How did that work?

I used an HE certified O2 barrier PEX that was acturally on sale for $240 per 1000 fiit role. Ballancing manifolds are not needed if lengths are ballanced. Since he is not installing till later it gives him more options. The numvers I quoted were actual from a slab on grade insulated slab that had 6X6 mesh through out. The point is that $250 per man hour is not reasonable based on my actural job experience. I think anything under $1200 would be reasonable for the 1100 square foot job. If you shop price for the job in todays market $800 to $1000 could be found. The point is that $2500 is out of wack. Laying Pex is easy and fast.

The inspector required a pressure test and water fill of the system. I am not sure how often you have a problem if not filled. I agree PEX is pretty tough but apparently there have been some failures.

On the 8200 square foot home I paid $50 per hour for the actual labor and had the material on site for the job. That is not hard to find. I was also on site so if there was an issue I could catch it. $100 an hour for for good subs is easy in todays economy. Over $200 an hour was when everyone was so busy you could not find anyone. $250 per hour is gouging the client.

Brian

On the 8200 square foot home I paid $50 per hour for the actual labor and had the material on site for the job.

I'm not following that. At $50 per hour that's only 16 hours of labor to do 8200 sf for your $800 mark.

I've now got 60 hours of paid labor and 25 hours of my own in 5400 sf of tubing. That is about 1.5 hrs of labor for every 100 square feet. I was there for just about every minute and I can tell you the contractor and assistants worked straight through. This is a more complex job, but I have a hard time seeing how anyone can do any kind of a quality job with less than an hour per 100 sf. And, that doesn't include travel time, setup and schlepping.

We use Crete-Heat with Helix fiber . No mesh, no fastening pex, just walk it in . My dog Wilson can do it. We use the Helix because we pour a 3" slab instead of 4" with greater strength and no mesh to screw around with. Saves money and time since the slab is finished sooner.

My dog Wilson can do it.

I'd have to say the same thing for bar and tying PEX.

I'd like to hear more about the Crete-Heat, though. You must have some information on the added cost of fiber and the product vs laying foam and a grid of bar and how labor fits into the mix.

Helix will cost about $2.50 per lb and you would add it at 10lbs per yd of concrete. Crete Heat comes in a 2x4 panel with lugs built into it. You start lying it in the left hand corner and continue across cut the last piece, use the salvage to start the next row. There's a lap joint on all four sides. You walk the pex into the lugs at the patern you need.

Helix will cost about $2.50 per lb and you would add it at 10lbs per yd of concrete

Okay, so you're spending 25% more on your mix to save 25% on the volume. How do CreteHeat panels compare in cost to XPS sheet and rebar and ties?

I'm also not buying mesh, handling mesh,or bringing mesh to the job. I also know that unlike mesh that ends up in the top of the slab or in the bottom of the slab, the Helix is all the way thru the slab. My contractor that does my slabs also charges by the yard of cc. Raz, Creatherm, or Crete-Heat runs from $10 to $12 per panel.

runs from $10 to $12 per panel.

Okay, that is about $1.25 - $1.50/sf, right? Is that for the 1" or the 2"? I just paid $0.80/sf for 2" XPS, so it looks like there is a premium of $0.45 - $0.70/sf out of which comes bar, chairs and ties. I see more labor in placing the smaller knobbed panels and cutting them with the tougher dimpled surface on top vs the XPS which is almost fun to snap.

I also know that unlike mesh that ends up in the top of the slab or in the bottom of the slab

After having tried the mesh several times, I like the flexibility of rebar much better. It stays where you place it and the footing is easier. The supplier brings it to the job and it takes less than 5 min to bring it in and drop it for tying. You need to mark for spacing, but I find I refer to thahose marks again and again for other things as well.

All things being equal, I'd also rather have the 4" slab rather than the thinner one. More mass for certain applications.

Can you polish floors with the helix in it?

As a contractor my wholesale cost is around $.40 and i will have about 2hrs at the very least into this before I start the job. Then I have all the expenses any other business has Before direct labor costs. I know you could find somebody to do it on the side for 400 cash plus materials but don't expect a contractor to do it for that. My costs per man hour is over 100 before profit. We also avg around 200' per man hour on garage and basement mesh tie down. So my cost on that job at break even is 1200 plus 10% for cost of sale and 20% for gross profit. net proffit will be less than 10% so 1600 for a job that only costs me 400 but yet I only make...160. This is for legitimate contractor paying a living wage and all insurance, taxes etc no day laborers or under the table.

As a contractor my wholesale cost is around $.40 and i will have about 2hrs at the very least into this before I start the job.

Which of the things that we talked about are you referring to?

I like your math ilgeo. Most residential job should be staple to XPS, faster and more profitable. Basement slab don't need to be reinforced - nothing stops cracks, so I don't see the merit in mesh or rebar unless I have a deep slab or a driveway snow melt perhaps.

ICFHybrid sorry should have replyed to zehboss's first post.
Badger Most contractors have mesh in basements and we go with the flow. Alot of oour work here is ag related and is rebar and wire mats. staple down is walking the dog.