Posted By Tribefan668 on 08/04/2009 5:42 PM
Dana1:
Wow! Thanks for all the info. It gives me a lot to consider. The house is only 8 years old and I had it built. I had all penetrations into the attic sealed with foam before the insulation was blown in. All of the outside walls are insulated with wet spray recycled material. My main concern is the temps in the attic space. On a day like today, I can put my had to the ceiling in the 2nd floor and it is hot. Would more blown in cellulose and adding a radiant barrier be an improvement? These are both things I could do myself.
If I were to find a contractor who could do the job and not gouge me, would the spray foam on the underside of the roof decking be a good move?
I think I have more questions now than when I started...
Ok, so if it's fairly tight new construction... (I probably went way too verbose-mode on attic insulation with the picture I had in my mind at the time, eh? :-) )
What IS the R-value of your existing attic insulation? If the ceiling feels hot to the touch, it can't be TOO much. How deep, and what material?
If it's over R35 radiant barrier isn't going to buy you much. At R19 it'll be significant (25-30% reduction in heat transfer on killer-hot days), but not as much as doubling your insulation depth. But at any insulation level radiant barrier won't lower the
air temp in the attic. Radiant barrier lowers the temperature of the upper layer of the insulation, which is higher than attic ambient since it is absorbing/re-radiating heat that radiates from the hot roof deck, not absorbing heat from the air. With a radiant barrier in place the top of the insulation runs at the the attic air temp, which will still be hot, but the thermal transfer to the conditioned space will be reduced because the top of the insulation is now cooler. (The bigger the R value of the insulation, the less difference it makes.) If you can blow over the joist-tops to form a thermal break it'll be be a bigger difference, since the thermal short circuit of the joists is about a quarter of the heat gain at insulation depths of 9.5" (2x10 joists filled to the top, ~R35, if cellulose), despite the joist-tops being less than 10% of the surface area. 6" of cellulose over the the top of a 2x10 doubles the R-value at those critical stripes, while only increasing the R value of the space between the joists by ~60%.
If you can find somebody to spray half-pound foam between the rafters
for under/around 45 cents/board-foot (square feet of coverage x depth
in inches) and seal the vents the same time, that WILL lower the attic
temp, but if you already have R38+ and sealed/insulated air handler
& ducts it won't lower the AC & heating bills enough to be
cost-effective. But if you only have ~R19 on the attic floor, by all
means, foam the rafters with half-pound stuff to 6" or more. (Adding
6" of cellulose DIY style would be about as effective for signficanly lower cost
though.) It'll add 10F or so to the peak temp of the south-facing shingles, reducing their lifespan 5-10%, (but I'd take 23 years of energy savings from the foam over another 2 years of shingle life for a 25-year shingle, eh?)
With R-value more is always better, but
where that additional R has the
best return will vary. If you have a gaping hole in the thermal
boundary it doesn't matter if you raise the R value of the rest to
R200, the heat loss through the hole is dominating.
Having the air
handler & ducts outside of the thermal boundary represents the
biggest discernable thermal-hole in your description so far. Foaming
the rafters would put it somewhere in the middle of the thermal
boundary, so the AC system would still benefit greatly from sealing & insulation.
No matter what else you do, seam/joint sealing & insulating the AC ducts will be significant boost to cooling system performance. If they're not sealed & insulated to at least R8 this is an absolute must-do. It's OK for the attic to run hot- it's on the outside of the thermal boundary, you have to expect it. But any duct-air communication with that space from duct leakage is an efficiency-killer, as it the conducted heat gain through the ducts surrounded with 120-140F air. If you had a foam contractor in the area 3-4" of half-pound foam over the ducts would both seal & insulate. But mastic sealing and a heaping cellulose overblow can be as-good for less money as a DIY project. If the air handler is basically a flat-sided box with R-4 or less of internal insulation (most are- many have NO insulation), FSK-taping the seams and putting 1" of ISO board (with FSK taped edges) is reasonable, and still allows reasonable service access when needed.
When it's time to re-roof, using high solar reflectivity moderate emmisivity "cool roof" materials will actually reduce the air temperature in the attic. RB on the underside of the rafters only keeps the hot roof decking from radiating heat directly to the joist-tops, ducts and insulation, but the thermal transfer to the air stays about the same. With high reflectance & IR-emmissive exterior roofing materials the interior of the roof deck itself runs cooler. The effect is more dramatic with flat roofs, but I'm assuming your hipped roof has at least a 5/12 pitch(?), above which convection cools from the outside far better than flat roofs. Under California Title 24 a "cool roof" (defined as 70% minimum solar reflectivity, 75% minimum emissivity)
or radiant-barrier
or addtional insulation is required in hotter regions of the state, when re-roofing, unless the pitch is over 2/12. There are models out there that can tell you with some precision how well your roof sheds heat via convection based on it's pitch and orientation, etc, but you're probably already into the "good" zone, where cool roof & radiant barriers could improve it somewhat but not in a major fashion. But when the costs of a cool roof and other are similar, "some" still beats "nothing".
So in order:
*Seal & insulate ducts & air handler
**Measure your existing insulation level- if under R38, either add more to the rafters (sealing the attic), or blow cellulose over the floor to depth of at least 10", and if you can cover the joist tops by 3" or more by going a bit deeper it'll worth it (way more than a radiant barrier would be.)
***Then look at other primary solar gain issues: If you don't have low-E low-gain windows on the E,S, & W sides, low-E window film will make a difference. If you don't have awnings/overhangs over your S windows, they too will make a difference. Shutters or exterior (and to a much lower degree, interior) Venetian-blinds ore exterior rollup sun shades (eg: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/RollupSunShades.htm ) can cut solar gain on the E S & W windows. Treating N side windows isn't as important unless you have highly reflective buildings or ground on that side. If it's white sand or whitewashed adobe, the gain is still large, and low-E windows/films and blinds/exterior shades will cut it by way more than half.